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2021 American Political Scene

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  • Z seems to have a serious problem with a President doing exactly what he said he’d do four months earlier, and that being the promise his predecessor made on the nation’s behalf.

    Who’d a thunk it?
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by zraver View Post

      he lied to the public about the military situation in Afghanistan, left citizens behind and knew he was leaving them behind.
      The lying bit? Don't know, mishandled the withdrawal yes. But unless you have evidence proving it was done with malice of forethought and that the President chose to leave US Citizens behind while deliberately mishandling the withdrawal it's not a crime, its a cock up. The administration was definitely caught flat footed by the speed of the collapse of the Western backed Government and its military. But the speed at which it happened? That's also IMO pretty clear evidence that it was always going to fall over the moment the US withdrew, no matter who was in charge at the time or when they announced the decision to pull out.

      Don't forget Trump was going to pull out to had he stayed in office. Might he have got more citizens out? Possibly, assuming they all reached the evac points in time but I doubt anyone could have gotten them all out, not with the speed of the collapse. In any event that's all 'what is' or could have's.

      Main point? Incompetency or mistakes aren't a crime even as much as you might like them to be. If they were every President in US history would have done jail time.


      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      That is not true for cops, judges and lawyers. For people who work with the law or money, the appearance of impropriety is impropriety. If a CPA was running around calling clients marks and losing their money though shoddy work product he would be charged by the self same FBI agents you are covering for. In this case it wasn't just statements, but words followed with action. Like I said, you've set the bar impossibly high.
      Impropriety is not a crime. You ever had a boss or co-worker you and others you worked with didn't like? Ever mouth off in private about his or her perceived failings or incompetence. Police do it, soldiers do it, judges and lawyers do it. Everyone does it. Doing it publicly while acting in an official capacity different thing. Then there are consequences. The conversations your fixated on were private - until revealed. And I'm not protecting them I'm expecting to see some evidence that they knowingly and willingly committed actions (against their sworn oaths) designed to pervert the course of justice

      The accountant? Losing a clients money isn't a crime. Stealing it is. As per point one above there's a clear legal and ethical difference between negligence and deliberate malice.


      And really? Words follow action? Every parent whose ever said 'I could strangle that kid!' does so? Where are the actions these FBI agents are supposed to have committed? And please don't reference the warrant issue again? (Yet again the IG found no evidence of bias) if they had known they were using false/inaccurate information that's one thing but all the evidence to date says they didn't know. Only one guy did and he went down for it.

      And as for the high bar? Its the same bar I'd set for someone accusing you of a crime or for that matter the one I'd expect for myself.

      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      Then why the illegal firings of the service boards specifically to make room for people who agreed with the dear leader?

      Or how about a tale of two woes? Clinesmith who lied to the most secret court in the country (purgery) only got a slap on the wrist, did not even lose his law license despite a crime of moral turpitude that directly affected public perception of and faith in government. verse the people who are ONLY charged with trespassing and non-violent offenses on Jan 6th being held in solitary confinement, months past the actual sentencing guidelines, losing everything. Pick a standard, any standard but apply it fairly. Going easy on government felons and cracking the whip on citizen misdemeanors is not a good place to be in.
      Can't talk to the Boards I don't have enough info. Clinesmith? Got what the Judge though he deserved based largely on his motivations (laziness) as opposed to malicious intent. If there was evidence the judge made an error at law then the Prosecution could have appealed. Did they? I don't know but I doubt it. As for his license? To the extent it makes any difference? It should have been suspended even if only for a couple of years before he got to practice again under supervision for a while. But that's just my opinion. And as the great Harry Callahan says 'opinions be like...''

      Originally posted by zraver View Post
      Because it stinks of good ol boy network. You don't change an email 18 degrees by accident. But even aside from Clinessmith, they did know it was defective. Steele was not a reliable source, they fired him. They knew his master was Perkin Coie/ DNC/HRC. They had an active hand in leaking his BS to the media to generate media reports they could then cite to get a FISA warrant after the first one was rejected. Comey admitted he sent agents in to entrap Flynn in the early days of the Trump Administration, and that the football bat defensive briefing Trump got was really an investigation. Oh and let us not forget Comey stealing government documents and leaking them to a reporter and then bragging about it.
      He didn't change it by accident, he did it deliberately - to save himself time and effort. Again laziness not malicious intent. Can't talk about the rest much either as I don't know much. If there was any criminal conduct in the acts you referenced I'd expect it to be reviewed then prosecuted like the Clinesmith matter was. But I'm not going to convict anyone without evidence, not on the basis of opinion (excepting expert opinion of course).
      Last edited by Monash; Yesterday, 03:15.
      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DOR View Post
        Z seems to have a serious problem with a President doing exactly what he said he’d do four months earlier, and that being the promise his predecessor made on the nation’s behalf.

        Who’d a thunk it?
        1. Biden did not hold the Taliban to the Doha accords that premised our withdrawal on the Taliban meeting certain metrics.

        2. Biden had the intel that the Afghan security forces were collapsing after on-call air support from Bagram was gone

        3. He did not act on that intel to get our citizens and allies out.

        4. He lied about the military situation, to the public and the people who ended up finding themselves in harms way.

        5. He left citizens and allies behind

        6. I support ending the war in Afghanistan, Biden turned a peace into a defeat.

        7. Comments by our major allies make it clear that our credibility with NATO is at low ebb. France, UK, Germany may not have liked Trump, but there was concrete investment in US commitments to the alliance under him. Biden just proved the US cannot be counted on to defend its own citizens let alone its allies.

        Comment


        • Looks like Milley deserves the Petraeus treatment. Next example of a double standard?

          Offers to secretly warn China if the US is going to attack= treason. Like literally the definition of treason.

          Inside the crisis surrounding Joint Chiefs Chairman Mark Milley (yahoo.com)

          OK< libs start your pretzeling in 3, 2, 1.... go!

          Comment


          • President Joe Biden The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, D.C. 20500 Dear Mr. President: I write with grave concern regarding recent reporting that General Mark Milley, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, worked to actively undermine the sitting Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces and contemplated a treasonous leak of classified information to the Chinese Communist Party in advance of a potential armed conflict with the People’s Republic of China (PRC). These actions by General Milley demonstrate a clear lack of sound judgement, and I urge you to dismiss him immediately. It has been reported that General Milley spoke with his counterpart in the People’s Liberation Army after learning the PRC was worried about escalating tensions as a result of military exercises conducted in the South China Sea. Reportedly, General Milley told his counterpart: “[y]ou and I have known each other for now five years. If we’re going to attack, I’m going to call you ahead of time. It’s not going to be a surprise.” 1 I do not need to tell of you the dangers posed by senior military officers leaking classified information on U.S. military operations, but I will underscore that such subversion undermines the President’s ability to negotiate and leverage one of this nation’s instruments of national power in his interactions with foreign nations. Even more egregiously, reports indicate that General Milley interfered with the procedures by which the civilian commander-in-chief can order a nuclear strike. He purportedly instructed officials not to take orders without his involvement and forced them to take an oath to that effect. A senior military officer interfering with that civilian-controlled process is simply unacceptable at best, and at worst, would cause ambiguity which could lead to war. General Milley has attempted to rationalize his reckless behavior by arguing that what he perceived as the military’s judgement was more stable than its civilian commander. It is a dangerous precedent that could be asserted at any point in the future by General Milley or others. It threatens to tear apart our nation’s longstanding principle of civilian control of the military. 1 https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...-milley-china/ 2 You must immediately dismiss General Milley. America’s national security and ability to lead in the world are at stake. Sincerely, Marco Rubio U.S. Senator

            A94C8A1265D701CCCB6D9D3B6DF2E5FD.09.14.21-senator-rubio-to-biden-re-milley-.pdf (senate.gov)

            Comment


            • I thought Milley should have stepped down a year ago.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                I thought Milley should have stepped down a year ago.
                After this? Yeah definitely. On the other hand, this was sorely needed after January 6th.

                At this point he just needs to fall on his sword. Regarding China, he did the wrong thing for the right reason, but it was still the wrong thing to do.
                Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

                Comment


                • Wrong thing for the wrong reasons. There is no excuse for treason. He needs to be prosecuted and crucified if true. Let any future generals know if you want to be the man who makes the call, hang up the uniform and run for office.

                  Comment


                  • Oh look WAPO ignoring the treason and blaming Trump.... Yet another example of why trust in the media is so low amongst conservatives.

                    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ive-questions/

                    Comment


                    • Z, IAW the UCMJ, to be guilty of Treason the US must be at war with the party the servicemember treated with. I won't deny that there are tensions between the US & China but as we are not at war withthe PRC treason would not apply. And as he acted as a member of the uniformed services he is subject first to the UCMJ.

                      As I said, he should have resigned over a year ago.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        Oh look WAPO ignoring the treason and blaming Trump.... Yet another example of why trust in the media is so low amongst conservatives.

                        https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ive-questions/
                        Z, I would find you argument compelling if 1) it was anything other than the Washington Post...the Post skews to the Left just as much as the other Washington daily, the Washington Times skews right. 2) If this was presented as a news story. It is not. It is an editorial based on Post's Opinion page...the part of the paper where columnists express their opinions.

                        You need to parse between the 2. I can also show you editorials in the Opinion section by conservative writers (Will, Rubin) as well as middle of the road (Boot).
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • Alby, someone who gives or offers information or gives or offers support to a forgiven power is a spy. Spying is treason, it does not require a state of war.

                          Add in the trying to usurp control of the nations nuke. Dude is dirty.

                          As for the WAPO, it was offered up as yet another example. That's not skewing left, it's straight ignoring the news and engaging in pure political spin.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Alby, someone who gives or offers information or gives or offers support to a forgiven power is a spy. Spying is treason, it does not require a state of war.
                            Now, that is a stretch. Nothing Miley said is Class Protected material and he was trying to calm a nervous nuclear weapons power from doing something stupid. That's his job. It's also his job to get China not to escalate things else he would escalate things.

                            You're saying that no Officer have the right to tell an enemy that I will fire if fired upon. Not only is that false, I also have the right to tell the enemy that if he doesn't do anything stupid, I won't do anything stupid.

                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Add in the trying to usurp control of the nations nuke. Dude is dirty.
                            Miley is part of the Nuclear Release Chain-of-Command. It is his duty to refuse an illegal order. An unprovoked nuclear attack on China would be an example of such an illegal order.
                            Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 15 Sep 21,, 17:40.
                            Chimo

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                              Alby, someone who gives or offers information or gives or offers support to a forgiven power is a spy. Spying is treason, it does not require a state of war.

                              Add in the trying to usurp control of the nations nuke. Dude is dirty.

                              As for the WAPO, it was offered up as yet another example. That's not skewing left, it's straight ignoring the news and engaging in pure political spin.
                              1. Did miss my point about the UCMJ. It is very specific. And Espionage are handled separately both with in the UCMJ as well as in the US Code.

                              2. Again, separate the Opinion section from the News section. Editorial writers by definition give their spin on the news of the day...that is their job.

                              And keep in mind if its on the front page of the online version that doesn't mean that is what is in the print version...which is how a paper is judged.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Miley is part of the Nuclear Release Chain-of-Command. It is his duty to refuse an illegal order. An unprovoked nuclear attack on China would be an example of such an illegal order.

                                Colonel, this was true at one time but is no longer since the 2002 when it was codified that National Command Authority runs from the POTUS to SECDEF to the appropriate Combatant Command. For nuke release tht would be SECDEF to CDR, Strategic Command. The Chairman JCS has advisory role only. That is what Milley was pointing out last year when POTUS said that he was considering ordering Milley to use active duty forces for domestic control. Milley had to say it wasn't within his autority and asked for the attorneys in the room to speak up.

                                And agree that talking to another to keep things cool is not treasonous.
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

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