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FM 22-5 Drill & Ceremonies Obama Style

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  • Gun Grape
    replied
    Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
    Thanks for clearing that from the military angle sir. I see your point and would feel the same, regardless of whether I had served or not.

    My take on this. There is no "military angle"

    The people in the military are a reflection of society. We have Liberals, Conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, Independents and those that don't give a damn.

    Who the President is, or what he believes doesn't matter to the average military person. We have a job to do and we do it.

    I was active duty under 4 Presidents. Reagan, and the Bushes (Sr and Jr) supposedly liked and respected the military. Clinton was suppose to hate the air we breath. ALL of them sent me places where I got shot at. I couldn't tell any difference. Didn't hold it against any of them They had their job to do, I had mine

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  • desertswo
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    We, most especially those of us who hang around for a full career, become divorced from the rest of the US. We are different, and hold ourselves apart.

    Sir, then shame on us.

    We are not better....we are from that population.

    We owe it to that population to make sure we stay connected.

    We can disagree but we cannot place ourselves above....because as much as we like to think we are above the general population, we are not.
    Hey, 'm not saying it's a good thing. However, the evidence for it was pretty profound based on surveys by outfits like RAND, and Professor Moskos whose life long study as a sociology scholar was the culture of the military, and again Ricks who'd been around us and writing about us since Christ was a mess cook. i didn't like it, but I had to agree that the differences were there.

    I went to my 40th high school reunion the other day, and four of us had been career military officers; two Marines (one of whom did a stretch as an Army enlisted man), and an Army guard guy who literally was blown up in Iraq (lost a lung, half his liver, required a total hip replacement, and has more shrapnel continuously leaking out of him than the law allows). We tried to explain to old friends we hadn't seen in a while, the sorts of things we did for 20 plus years, and they just don't "get it." I don't lose much sleep over it, but it isn't a good thing, because in my mind, it lays the foundation to the "Seven Days In May" scenario. Like so . . .

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  • S2
    replied
    Pretty sure I felt different even if I didn't feel superior. I just knew there were things going on which I understood very well and much of the public couldn't, wouldn't and didn't.

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    We, most especially those of us who hang around for a full career, become divorced from the rest of the US. We are different, and hold ourselves apart.

    Sir, then shame on us.

    We are not better....we are from that population.

    We owe it to that population to make sure we stay connected.

    We can disagree but we cannot place ourselves above....because as much as we like to think we are above the general population, we are not.

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  • desertswo
    replied
    Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
    But yet he was elected to lead you, not once but twice. Does that reflect a fundamental schism amongst the electorate or do you think it was a one-off. A reflection of the times. Of a war weary post-Bush America, feeling a bit rebellious?
    I believe it is the result of an All Volunteer military. We, most especially those of us who hang around for a full career, become divorced from the rest of the US. We are different, and hold ourselves apart. Not everyone believes this, but trust me, it is a weltanschauung that permeates the force from head to toe. In my view, that is a little dangerous. See the work of the late Northwestern University Professor Charles Moskos, whom I was fortunate to meet and learn a great deal from while at the Pentagon, working on changing the pay and retirement system (it became a readiness issue, and that was my main brief on the Joint Staff, and I worked a good deal with the J-1 folks on that one), and Making The Corps by Thomas Ricks, who used to write for the Military Times corporation. He has/had his finger on the pulse of the military for a long, long time, and even though not "of us," he had us figured out, and was able to see things that the rest of us don't because we are part of the situation (I don't say "problem" because I don't know for certain that is what it is). It's pretty interesting stuff.

    With regard to the Commander-in-Chief, I would follow any legal order that came down from him. The problem is that he has a little problem with understanding the Constitution that we both swore an oath to "support and defend." The US government is currently doing a lot of things with regard to information gathering that are patently illegal. I used to serve as a kind of "pimp" for NSA from my nest in the E-Ring. I had access to a DoD personnel database that had the name and location of every linguist in the military, and believe me when I tell you that there are a lot of them. They got sent to NSA and occasionally the FBI to be used to do a lot of things; some of them good, but as recent revelations by our friend Mr. Snowdon have shown, others not so much. I knew what those guys at NSA were capable of, and a lot of it ain't pretty. Using that sort of capability against the American people is wrong and needs to be stopped. Were I in any of those roles, I'm afraid I would have had to resign from the military as I could not, in good conscience do what is being done.

    As regards Mr. Obama as a person, I wouldn't cross the street to urinate on his intestines if they were on fire. I believe he is dangerous in many ways, and he knows it.
    Last edited by desertswo; 29 Sep 14,, 13:54.

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  • sated buddha
    replied
    Originally posted by desertswo View Post
    He neither understands, nor "likes" us. Frankly, he acts as if we were a bunch of automatons to be sent out to do his bidding, without him REALLY understanding the cost. Also, and this one will probably be controversial, he REALLY doesn't understand the US and its people. He may have been born here (although, if like me, you've been to Hawaii about a bazillion times, you kind of wonder if it's really part of the US), though some may still have an issue with that, but he spent his formative years in freaking Indonesia. He just doesn't "get" us, and it shows in just about every thing he does.
    But yet he was elected to lead you, not once but twice. Does that reflect a fundamental schism amongst the electorate or do you think it was a one-off. A reflection of the times. Of a war weary post-Bush America, feeling a bit rebellious?

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  • desertswo
    replied
    Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
    Thanks for clearing that from the military angle sir. I see your point and would feel the same, regardless of whether I had served or not.

    I read some of the old debates here when Obama was to be re-elected and somehow had (erroneously) gotten the impression that at least for some it was more of an "old boys club" thing. Where Obama did not belong.
    He neither understands, nor "likes" us. Frankly, he acts as if we were a bunch of automatons to be sent out to do his bidding, without him REALLY understanding the cost. Also, and this one will probably be controversial, he REALLY doesn't understand the US and its people. He may have been born here (although, if like me, you've been to Hawaii about a bazillion times, you kind of wonder if it's really part of the US), though some may still have an issue with that, but he spent his formative years in freaking Indonesia. He just doesn't "get" us, and it shows in just about every thing he does.

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  • sated buddha
    replied
    Originally posted by desertswo View Post
    The fact that they didn't serve doesn't bother me at all. LBJ and Nixon both served in the Navy and mostly spent their time cheating at poker and running various scams. So there is serving, and serving with honor. I worked in the Pentagon under the Clinton administration. I briefed his SECDEF several times, and his Vice President once. I loved the former and despised the latter . . . and he served in Vietnam. What bothered me about Clinton was not that he was a Democrat (although I am not one . . . nor a Republican), or that he didn't serve. No, what bothered me is that he protested against the Vietnam War, and in a foreign country into the bargain. I didn't like that war either, but being a Navy junior, I knew there were things one just does not do when people are fighting and dying in the field. People died because of what Clinton and others of his ilk did, because no matter how we want to rationalize or sugar coat it, from this side (the uniformed side that is) of the ledger, that's "giving aid and comfort to the enemy," and THAT I will never forgive. As far as I'm concerned, given who educated him (Alinsky et al.), the current occupant of the White House is just as bad, if not worse.
    Thanks for clearing that from the military angle sir. I see your point and would feel the same, regardless of whether I had served or not.

    I read some of the old debates here when Obama was to be re-elected and somehow had (erroneously) gotten the impression that at least for some it was more of an "old boys club" thing. Where Obama did not belong.

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  • desertswo
    replied
    Originally posted by sated buddha View Post
    I always liked President Bush.

    That he is a dog lover to boot, reaffirms that some more.

    I realise that this is a predominantly military crowd here on WAB, so the opinions and thinking would be likewise. But what I really want to know, seeing as I spend more time with this group of Americans than any of the others I interact with, is does it really make a difference whether a US President has served in the military in the past or not? Is a non-serving/civvy President (like Obama) automatically consciously or unconsciously put one rung lower in the public eye when measured up against past US Presidents who did serve? It would most probably obviously be so to a great extent amongst the military guys and their families and extended families and friends. But America is a country of over 300 million people. The former group would be max a few million. What does the larger majority think?

    I hasten to add and reaffirm that no disrespect is meant here. I genuinely want to understand the psyche of the American public vis a vis their chosen leader.
    The fact that they didn't serve doesn't bother me at all. LBJ and Nixon both served in the Navy and mostly spent their time cheating at poker and running various scams. So there is serving, and serving with honor. I worked in the Pentagon under the Clinton administration. I briefed his SECDEF several times, and his Vice President once. I loved the former and despised the latter . . . and he served in Vietnam. What bothered me about Clinton was not that he was a Democrat (although I am not one . . . nor a Republican), or that he didn't serve. No, what bothered me is that he protested against the Vietnam War, and in a foreign country into the bargain. I didn't like that war either, but being a Navy junior, I knew there were things one just does not do when people are fighting and dying in the field. People died because of what Clinton and others of his ilk did, because no matter how we want to rationalize or sugar coat it, from this side (the uniformed side that is) of the ledger, that's "giving aid and comfort to the enemy," and THAT I will never forgive. As far as I'm concerned, given who educated him (Alinsky et al.), the current occupant of the White House is just as bad, if not worse.

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  • sated buddha
    replied
    Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
    [ATTACH]38083[/ATTACH]
    I always liked President Bush.

    That he is a dog lover to boot, reaffirms that some more.

    I realise that this is a predominantly military crowd here on WAB, so the opinions and thinking would be likewise. But what I really want to know, seeing as I spend more time with this group of Americans than any of the others I interact with, is does it really make a difference whether a US President has served in the military in the past or not? Is a non-serving/civvy President (like Obama) automatically consciously or unconsciously put one rung lower in the public eye when measured up against past US Presidents who did serve? It would most probably obviously be so to a great extent amongst the military guys and their families and extended families and friends. But America is a country of over 300 million people. The former group would be max a few million. What does the larger majority think?

    I hasten to add and reaffirm that no disrespect is meant here. I genuinely want to understand the psyche of the American public vis a vis their chosen leader.

    Leave a comment:


  • tuna
    replied
    Why can't we just be honest and have the Marines and president just flip each other off - we know neither likes the other.

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  • S2
    replied
    Clearly a step in the right direction. Dog (martini) in left hand. Chogy would tell you that's how every Air Force officer salutes.

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  • SteveDaPirate
    replied
    As Gun Grape noted, the president saluting is a relatively recent development. Clinton sucked at it at first, Bush screwed it up sometimes, and now Obama did the same. The way this is running around the media is like a celebrity who's tit fell out of her dress. People are reading way too much into it.

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  • sated buddha
    replied
    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    I think its much to do over nothing.
    Quite clueless about military protocol. Being just a civvy myself.

    Should he have been holding the coffee cup in the other hand?
    Last edited by sated buddha; 26 Sep 14,, 12:55.

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  • Officer of Engineers
    replied
    You salute the rank, not the person.

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