1st female 4-☆ Admiral

[Minskaya]

Michelle Howard was sworn in today as the first female four star admiral in the US Navy. A graduate of the US Naval Academy, Howard was the first African American in the US Navy to command a ship (USS Rushmore). She also commanded the multinational anti-piracy task force in the Indian Ocean in 2009, and was the Maritime Task Force commander for Baltic operations in 2010 as part of the 6th Fleet. With her promotion, she became the 38th vice chief of naval operations.

Congratulations

[desertswo]

Michelle Howard was sworn in today as the first female four star admiral in the US Navy. A graduate of the US Naval Academy, Howard was the first African American in the US Navy to command a ship (USS Rushmore). She also commanded the multinational anti-piracy task force in the Indian Ocean in 2009, and was the Maritime Task Force commander for Baltic operations in 2010 as part of the 6th Fleet. With her promotion, she became the 38th vice chief of naval operations.

Congratulations

She was a student of mine, twice, at Surface Warfare Officer School Command. First when I was an instructor at the Coronado detachment in the 1982-1985 time frame, and again when I was the Director of Engineering and Damage Control Training from 1994 to 1997. She was an Ensign the first time around and I a Lieutenant. The second time I was a Commander and she was a Lieutenant Commander on her way to her XO ride. Isn't it interesting how people fly up the Flag/General Officer ranks once they make that initial cut at one star?

[Gun Grape]

With 4 stars you would think she would have learned to wear her ribbons correctly.

Officers, Send them to school, train them to be outstanding Ladies and Gentlemen, and they still can't dress themselves right


Other than that Congratulations are in order.

[ace16807]

With 4 stars you would think she would have learned to wear her ribbons correctly.

Officers, Send them to school, train them to be outstanding Ladies and Gentlemen, and they still can't dress themselves right


Other than that Congratulations are in order.

For the uninitiated, what's wrong with her ribbons?

[Gun Grape]

For the uninitiated, what's wrong with her ribbons?

Any time that a ribbon is more than 1/3 covered by the collar, you make a new row.

If the number of ribbons worn causes the ribbons to be concealed by the service coat lapel/khaki shirt collar (one-third or more of a ribbon concealed), ribbon bars will be placed in successively decreasing rows; e.g., four-ribbon rows, three-ribbon rows, two-ribbon rows, single ribbon. The left (outer) edge of all decreasing rows will be in line vertically; except that when the top row presents an unsatisfactory appearance when so aligned, it will be placed in the position presenting the neatest appearance (usually centered over the row immediately below it).

Also her badges are wrong. Senior badge goes above the ribbon bar, Secondary badge goes below.

I'll let our resident SWO make the call on which is senior Joint Chiefs badge or SWO badge

[ace16807]

Any time that a ribbon is more than 1/3 covered by the collar, you make a new row.



Also her badges are wrong. Senior badge goes above the ribbon bar, Secondary badge goes below.

I'll let our resident SWO make the call on which is senior Joint Chiefs badge or SWO badge

How does one fit additional rows when you have the JCS badge sitting up there? I'm used to seeing that badge below the breast pocket so I looked it up and apparently for women it's supposed to be above the pocket/awards/insignia. That means you're pretty much stuck with a very finite amount of space, especially with a warfare insignia there as well.

[desertswo]

Any time that a ribbon is more than 1/3 covered by the collar, you make a new row.



Also her badges are wrong. Senior badge goes above the ribbon bar, Secondary badge goes below.

I'll let our resident SWO make the call on which is senior Joint Chiefs badge or SWO badge

If we naval officers were to wear our ribbons by Marine Corps uniform regs, you would be correct, but we don't, so you're not. We have three ribbons per row, period. If they are covered by the lapel, then so be it.

As far as the badges are concerned, I'm too lazy to go digging right now, but yeah, that seems screwed up to me. Her Joint Staff badge ought to be worn like mine below, if she was a man. Maybe the ladies do theirs differently. I just can't remember.



In the Navy, warfare qualification badges (pilot's wings, SWO's "water wings", submariner's dophins) are always on top. The only badges senior to the Joint Staff one (and man, you don't want to lose that one because they charge an arm and a leg for it!!), are the Presidential Service badge, and the OSD badge. In either case, in the Navy, it would still be below the ribbon bars and senior simply inboard of junior, like the order of ribbons. Again, maybe the women do it differently, but I'm too lazy to go looking. One other badge is worn by non-flag officers; the Command badges. One for Command-at-Sea, and one for Command Ashore (of as our British friends refer to it, command of a "stone frigate"). I could wear both, but didn't. The one you see is Command At Sea, and I am wearing it as if I was in command of a ship when the photo was taken. Had I not been, it would have gone on the other side on the pocket flap, or in the case of blues, just below the pocket opening. For some reason that I never pulled the string on, because I knew it would never apply to me, flag officers never wear theirs, even though they had certainly done so while in command of a ship or squadron. Just one of those quirky things.

[Albany Rifles]

From Navy Unifrom Regualtions

Chapter 5

Para 5101 (b) Women

- Wear the designated size badge. (See paragraph (d) in this section.)

- Center the badge 1/4 inch above the coat/shirt pocket or above authorized ribbons/large medals/breast insignia. <Figure 5-2-1>.

So the Admiral would be correct.

In the Army the wear of the staff badges are similiar as the Navy with a max of 4 worn and all are worn on the pockets, men and women.

Ribbons can be 3 or 4 wide.

If you have a CIB/EIB/CAB/CFMB/pilot wings/EOD Badge it goes above the ribbons and then skill badges go on pocket flap.

By tradition, US Army officers DO NOT wear marksmanship badges, period. You just better qualify for pistol and rifle...and if you are an Infantry officer, you damn well better be Expert!

[desertswo]

From Navy Unifrom Regualtions

Chapter 5

Para 5101 (b) Women

- Wear the designated size badge. (See paragraph (d) in this section.)

- Center the badge 1/4 inch above the coat/shirt pocket or above authorized ribbons/large medals/breast insignia. <Figure 5-2-1>.

So the Admiral would be correct.

In the Army the wear of the staff badges are similiar as the Navy with a max of 4 worn and all are worn on the pockets, men and women.

Ribbons can be 3 or 4 wide.

If you have a CIB/EIB/CAB/CFMB/pilot wings/EOD Badge it goes above the ribbons and then skill badges go on pocket flap.

By tradition, US Army officers DO NOT wear marksmanship badges, period. You just better qualify for pistol and rifle...and if you are an Infantry officer, you damn well better be Expert!

There are a lot of us Navy guys who mimic the Army policy with regard to marksmanship. I could have worn both, but didn't. I knew more than a few others who did things the same way. Actually, when wearing dress khakis, a lot of us routinely only wore the top three medals to which we were entitled, as well as our warfare badge, command badge, and staff badge if any. You know, the way this guy walked aboard Constellation back in the day to give us the one finger wave for the Board of Inspection and Survey. When your top ribbon starts with that one around your neck, you don't have to justify anything to anyone; and they made a movie about him starring John Wayne!

[Albany Rifles]

Holy Shit, Sir!!! You had Bulkeley inspect you guys!!????!?

By the way, I love the retroactrive SWO badge!

Nice touch.

[desertswo]

Holy Shit, Sir!!! You had Bulkeley inspect you guys!!????!?

By the way, I love the retroactrive SWO badge!

Nice touch.

Yeah, VADM Bulkeley only did the CV/CVNs by the time he got around to Constellation. He liked me because most of my gear worked. You'd be shocked at how rarely that was the case. By "worked" I don't mean it didn't go on when one pushed the ON/OFF Switch, but that whatever it was worked within design parameters. Anyway, he did the "real" cruisers (e.g. Chicago) as well before they went out of commission, and the battleships when they were reactivated. Otherwise, he stayed in DC and along with his good buddy (and no, I'm not joking, they really were conferrers when it came to all things material related) Hymen G, Rickover, made both four-star and Congress members' lives miserable.

[Gun Grape]

If we naval officers were to wear our ribbons by Marine Corps uniform regs, you would be correct, but we don't, so you're not. We have three ribbons per row, period. If they are covered by the lapel, then so be it.

Sir, the only thing I got wrong is the amount of ribbon covered by the lapel. The Marine Corps says 1/3, the Navy says 1/2

Per the US Navy uniform Regulations NAVPERS 15665I

5312. RIBBONS

1. Manner of Wearing. Ribbons are worn on the service coat or jumper of Service Dress Blue, Dress White, and on the shirt of Service Khaki, E6 and below Service Uniform. Ribbons are not authorized on formal dress, dinner dress, or working uniforms. Wear up to three ribbons in a single row. When more than three ribbons are authorized, wear them in horizontal rows of three each. If ribbons are not in multiples of three, the top row contains the lesser number, and the center of this row sits over the center of the one below it. Wear ribbons without spaces between ribbons or rows of ribbons. Wear ribbons with the lower edge of the bottom row centered 1/4 inch above the left breast pocket and parallel to the deck. To prevent coat lapels from covering ribbons, ribbons may be aligned so the border to wearer's left is aligned with left side of pocket. Rows of ribbons where more than 50% of the ribbon is covered by the coat lapel may contain two ribbons each and be aligned with left border. On Full Dress uniforms, <see article 5313>.

The Good Adm should have shortened the top two rows and left justified them

[desertswo]

Sir, the only thing I got wrong is the amount of ribbon covered by the lapel. The Marine Corps says 1/3, the Navy says 1/2

Per the US Navy uniform Regulations NAVPERS 15665I



The Good Adm should have shortened the top two rows and left justified them

Gunny, I'm not trying to get in a pissing contest with you, and frankly am not losing much sleep over this either way. My retirement check still rolls into my bank account every month regardless. However, in Navy Uniform Regs, as in many policies wherein the caveat "may" is found, there is considerable distance between "must" and "may." We "may" do a lot of things, but rarely do.

I have NEVER personally seen a naval officer wear his or her ribbons in the manner you correctly quoted from the Navy's Uniform Regs, and would be prescribed by the Corps' for a uniform requiring that ribbons be worn. That doesn't mean that it's never happened, but simply that I've never seen it. After all, I wasn't there when John Paul Jones said, "Don't give up the ship," either. The fact that I wasn't there has never stopped me from beating that concept in the heads of junior officer and enlisted alike. That's because there have been generation after generation of officers and chief petty officers ensuring the lesson was taught, and modeled just the same. Such is not the case for wearing ribbons with a bar containing two "justified."

However, don't take my word for it; let's go to three of the badder asses in the Navy officer corps; all of whom are wearing their ribbons with more than 50% of a ribbon covered by the lapel. One of whom, VADM Sean Pybus, is a friend and former Naval War College classmate; but let's let them do the "talking," shall we?

VADN Sean Pybus, USN



Rear Admiral P. Gardner Howe, III, USN



Rear Admiral Brian Losey, USN

[Gun Grape]

I agree Sir, Didn't mean to come off like I was trying to get in a pissing match.

The reason I didn't post pictures is that the only photos I could find of Adms wearing their ribbons IAW the regulations were all from the WW2 era.

You must also know that Marine SNCOs obsess over these things. Its in our blood

[desertswo]

I agree Sir, Didn't mean to come off like I was trying to get in a pissing match.

The reason I didn't post pictures is that the only photos I could find of Adms wearing their ribbons IAW the regulations were all from the WW2 era.

You must also know that Marine SNCOs obsess over these things. Its in our blood

And needs to be. It is, after all, how you keep yours alive, while killing a lot of theirs.