A Cold Warrior's Rant...

[Tamara]

I'm not going to lie to you. I have a near pathological distaste for talking on the telephone. I see all these people talking and texting and I just want to pull out my piece and put the dumb bastards out of their misery. Those walks around the Pentagon were also good ways to pick up a little intel. It's amazing what people will discuss over pizza in the cafeteria.

Well, A and B.

A: Welcome to my devious world of how to get information out of people. My best "session", so long ago, was when I did it to a Chaplain.

B: These days, I prefer the phone to the next system, talking with someone over text. While the text system does have the advantage of being able to see the person's computer screen, I find it an incredible waste of time because I am waiting for the person to type the next message. At least on the phone, I can tell them as they go on and on whether it is the correct path they are on.

The Navy version is, "Strap 'em on like an OBA!" (for the uninitiated, an OBA is an "Oxygen Breathing Apparatus" no longer used for fire fighting, but once standard issue aboard USN ships).

While I know what an OBA is.......but don't think I've worn one since a senior in NROTC back in the mid 80's.....I'm not quite getting the picture here of what everyone is talking about.

SIGH, I guess it was something to do with tying a Swiss Seat......or putting on a Kapok.

[bigross86]

Okay, now it's time for me to jump in for the other team:

Have you ever looked at a teenager or someone in their 20's sitting in front of a computer, wondering what it was they were doing, and how the hell they were doing it so fast?

Take my father. (No, please!) One time, about 7 or 8 years ago he asked me to find something for him on Google. About 45 seconds in, after running 3 or 4 search strings (it was an elusive bugger), my father started yelling at me that I wasn't even looking for what he asked me to. I was, his brain was just too slow to comprehend what I was doing. That was almost a decade ago. Technology has jumped forward by leaps and bounds, sometimes in ways almost unimaginable.

Look at a young person in front of the computer, look at how fast they can type. Now look at someone in their 50's. Typing speed is at least 50% slower, usually even more than that.

The sad truth is, the older generations are not suited for all this technology. The younger generations were born into it, molded by it. iPads at the age of 1-2, cellphones at the age of 6. I don't agree with it, and will do my best to raise my kids (when they come) to not be dependent on technology, but that's how it is. I know more about computers, cellphones and the like than my father, mother and step-father combined. Not bragging, I've just had more access and more reason to learn. It's no surprise now that my step-father calls me when he accidentally installs toolbars on his web browser, and I have to drive over to his house to remove them, because even a step-by-step written guide on how to enable remote access on his computer so I can do it from my office or home is well beyond him. My step-dad is a very smart man, just not when it comes to computers.

It would not surprise me in the least if our brains physically work different than yours. The Captain sees people talking and texting and says that he wants to "pull out my piece and put the dumb bastards out of their misery."* I can understand that, but what you don't realize is that while talking and texting, we are multi-tasking in ways you couldn't even imagine. I can be walking while talking to someone on the phone, instant messaging with a second person, emailing a third person and using the Maps app on my phone to tell me exactly how to get to the meeting I need to get to. In the 10-12 minutes you've walked the 3/4 of a mile around the E-Ring to look people in the eye when you talked to them, I've managed to talk with 3 people.

Moreover, the Captain's and Gunny's experience is skewed by the nature of where they worked. The Captain would walk 3/4 of a mile to see who he needed to see, Gunny would hoof it down to Range Control. That's great, if you can get it. The closest I've ever had a meeting was meeting some students for a planning session at Tel Aviv University, a 20 minute car drive (45 minutes by bus) from where I work. So, would you recommend that I just "hoof it down" to the University, or try and lock down as much as I possibly can via telephone/messaging/email before I even leave the office?

Like I said before, there is a difference between too much data and gleaning the information necessary, but the fact is, the ways of getting to that information have also changed. You despise email because it provides too much chaff which makes it harder to get to the wheat. That may be true, but today, despite all the chaff, using email will still get you more wheat than not using email.

*By the way, as one of those so-called dumb bastard, I find that comment slightly offensive, even though I know there's absolutely nothing personal behind it. Not to be a young upstart, doubt your intelligence in the least or provide you with anything less than the full amount of respect you deserve, but what makes you assume I/we are the dumb bastards? If you can't understand what we're doing and how we're doing it, why does that make us the dumb ones? Just something to think about....

[desertswo]

Well, A and B.

A: Welcome to my devious world of how to get information out of people. My best "session", so long ago, was when I did it to a Chaplain.

I once had to fly to San Francisco from DC with an Air Force Captain intern as my "man Friday" for a conference on the training of linguists at the Defense Foreign Language School at Monterrey (because I am a linguist, pimping for the NSA was just one of those collateral duties that got handed to me . . . everyone has their crosses to bear. That at least was an interesting one). While we were on the bus thingy that was taking us to the car rental place I told this kid to "Watch me." I had noticed a young man, obviously in the military even though in civilian attire, and I sat down next to him and within the ten minutes or so in traffic that it took us to get where we were going, I had his unit, his destination, his service, his pay grade, his MOS (he was Army on his way to one of the last jobs at the Presidio in San Francisco before they shut it down) and half a dozen other facts that would make for some useful open source intelligence. As far as he knew, I was a middle aged stock broker from Alexandria, VA. I don't have to tell you what that the job is all about; putting the bits and pieces of the puzzle together to make an informative picture. Anyway, the Air Force Captain, who was a navigator in MC-130 Combat Talons said, "I'm never drinking on an airplane again!"

B: These days, I prefer the phone to the next system, talking with someone over text. While the text system does have the advantage of being able to see the person's computer screen, I find it an incredible waste of time because I am waiting for the person to type the next message. At least on the phone, I can tell them as they go on and on whether it is the correct path they are on.

I got T-boned by a 17 year old who was texting nearly three years ago. The case still has not been settled even though he admitted his guilt and was cited by the police. I do talk on the phone, but unlike most kids "back in the day," I didn't even like it then. I don't know, to me it's just wasted time. The funny thing is that what I REALLY LOVE doing is tactical communications controlling aircraft or other ships, and when I used to stand engineering watches, in the carrier in particular, doing casualty control drills, or even the real thing, which is all about communications on either radios or sound powered telephones. Maybe it's because when I say something, something else happens almost immediately. When you are doing casualties in a CV or a BB, it's very complex. Lots of moving parts that you as this disembodied voice are making happen by dictate, and you better have your excrement in one set of hosiery or really bad, or at the very least, embarrassing things happen. Anyway, even the real thing was "fun" in a sort of perverse way. But ask me to just "chat" on a phone? I'd rather have a root canal sans anesthesia.

While I know what an OBA is.......but don't think I've worn one since a senior in NROTC back in the mid 80's.....I'm not quite getting the picture here of what everyone is talking about.

SIGH, I guess it was something to do with tying a Swiss Seat......or putting on a Kapok.

Basically, all of those terms, "Grabbing 'em by the stacking swivel" or "Strapping 'em on like an OBA" sort of connote the same thing . . . a one-way conversation at high volume with your face about three inches from that of the "victim." I could count the number of times I did such things in 25 years on two hands with a couple of fingers left over. I learned from my father that there are ways of looking at people that accomplish as much without saying a word. It wasn't a look that said, "I'm going to eviscerate you!" either. It was, "You've really let me down." My father, who was a CWO4 Boatswain was a master of that one. I just tried to copy him, and it seemed to work just fine. :)

[desertswo]

*By the way, as one of those so-called dumb bastard, I find that comment slightly offensive, even though I know there's absolutely nothing personal behind it. Not to be a young upstart, doubt your intelligence in the least or provide you with anything less than the full amount of respect you deserve, but what makes you assume I/we are the dumb bastards? If you can't understand what we're doing and how we're doing it, why does that make us the dumb ones? Just something to think about....

Point taken, and I do apologize, as you can't help being a dumb bastard! :hug: No, seriously, I meant no offense, and BTW, I have an MS in computer science. I just see these personal electronics devices changing society and culture in ways that are perplexing and often dangerous. See paragraph two in my response to Tamara.

[Doktor]

Ben,

I was like you. Lot's of e-mails, SMS's, calls, Skype, what not. Tell you what, it is false feeling that you do more things at once. One 15-30 meeting in persons changes 30 e-mails. If you managed to also have a coffee or some kind of food time. Only afterwards e-mails will have a meaning ;)

Otherwise, you are just in a pile of communication trying to cope with all that data.

How do you think I have so much time for WAB and still outperform my mobile colleagues?

[Tamara]

I once had to fly to San Francisco from DC with an Air Force Captain intern as my "man Friday" for a conference on the training of linguists at the Defense Foreign Language School at Monterrey (because I am a linguist, pimping for the NSA was just one of those collateral duties that got handed to me . . . everyone has their crosses to bear. That at least was an interesting one). While we were on the bus thingy that was taking us to the car rental place I told this kid to "Watch me." I had noticed a young man, obviously in the military even though in civilian attire, and I sat down next to him and within the ten minutes or so in traffic that it took us to get where we were going, I had his unit, his destination, his service, his pay grade, his MOS (he was Army on his way to one of the last jobs at the Presidio in San Francisco before they shut it down) and half a dozen other facts that would make for some useful open source intelligence. As far as he knew, I was a middle aged stock broker from Alexandria, VA. I don't have to tell you what that the job is all about; putting the bits and pieces of the puzzle together to make an informative picture. Anyway, the Air Force Captain, who was a navigator in MC-130 Combat Talons said, "I'm never drinking on an airplane again!"

Assuming, of course, he was being factual.

That is one of my "problems" in life. I am not by nature forward in information, I have been described as quiet if not downright hostile. It doesn't take much to set off my "spidey sense", and if I do decide to talk, I can refer to a component of my life which is true.....but may not be that accurate. It may be for defense or that I just don't want to get into a talk where so many people have their armchair opinions.

Long story short, by nature and situation, I am quick to suspect, to wonder, "Why is he talking to me? What is really on his mind, his agenda?".

I got T-boned by a 17 year old who was texting nearly three years ago. The case still has not been settled even though he admitted his guilt and was cited by the police. I do talk on the phone, but unlike most kids "back in the day," I didn't even like it then. I don't know, to me it's just wasted time. The funny thing is that what I REALLY LOVE doing is tactical communications controlling aircraft or other ships, and when I used to stand engineering watches, in the carrier in particular, doing casualty control drills, or even the real thing, which is all about communications on either radios or sound powered telephones. Maybe it's because when I say something, something else happens almost immediately. When you are doing casualties in a CV or a BB, it's very complex. Lots of moving parts that you as this disembodied voice are making happen by dictate, and you better have your excrement in one set of hosiery or really bad, or at the very least, embarrassing things happen. Anyway, even the real thing was "fun" in a sort of perverse way. But ask me to just "chat" on a phone? I'd rather have a root canal sans anesthesia.

Hey, I don't have a smart phone. This semester in glass when I pulled my Razor out of my breast pocket to turn it off as I was teaching, a student said, "A Razor? I haven't seen one of those for years!". My life, communication wise, is playing "submarine". I come to the surface, put the comm aerial up, listen for messages, transmit as needed, then down mast, down to the depths. If you really need to talk to me, we'll set up a time table for when I will be listening for incoming calls.

Basically, all of those terms, "Grabbing 'em by the stacking swivel" or "Strapping 'em on like an OBA" sort of connote the same thing . . . a one-way conversation at high volume with your face about three inches from that of the "victim." I could count the number of times I did such things in 25 years on two hands with a couple of fingers left over. I learned from my father that there are ways of looking at people that accomplish as much without saying a word. It wasn't a look that said, "I'm going to eviscerate you!" either. It was, "You've really let me down." My father, who was a CWO4 Boatswain was a master of that one. I just tried to copy him, and it seemed to work just fine. :)

Really? They don't put new recruits up against the wall and yell in their face anymore to teach them how to handle that? It wasn't fun when I was that plebe or fish and they were doing it to me, but looking back on it, that was a valuable piece of training to go through, to learn how to handle such attacks, how to deflect them.

[Officer of Engineers]

Ben,

This all goes back to the point of getting things done. To date, I know of no Colonel who emails his orders to his battalion or company commanders. He prefers to see them but outside of that, it was always, always voice contact to be followed by written or electronic orders.

The response is immediate and telling. I am not going to email brigade asking for fire support. I'm going to be on the horn screaming for it.

[astralis]

well, there's a time and place for all things.

if you need something done NOW-- talk in person if possible.

if you have the time-- i find e-mail to allow for better, non-snap judgment. also allows for a longer discussion.

having said that, the default for most people is the latter, especially in a bureaucratic institution like the pentagon (and the pentagon itself is already better than a place like State). and there comes a time when action needs to be taken...

[Albany Rifles]

Ben,

This all goes back to the point of getting things done. To date, I know of no Colonel who emails his orders to his battalion or company commanders. He prefers to see them but outside of that, it was always, always voice contact to be followed by written or electronic orders.

The response is immediate and telling. I am not going to email brigade asking for fire support. I'm going to be on the horn screaming for it.

OPORDs are giving face to face (preferably) or by voice with data as a back up.

Fires better already be on the way by the time I think about it from my FSO!

Gunny, When I was a Rifle Company XO, Support Platoon Leader and Battalion S4 in Germany we ran a duty roster amongst the Company XOs, SPT LDR & S4 as to which one of us used our ration card card to buy the 3 lb can of coffee/fifth of Jim Beam/carton of Marlboros to give to the local national (could be a German or an expatriot Pole, Czech, Ukrainian or Lithuanian....all on the same post at the same time) who was running the wash rack/ASP/fuel point in order to get it open on a Sunday, get your ratty 5 tons vehicles passed inspection (because you are 3 years out on the fielding schedule for the new ones) accept home station accounts to pay for fuel) at Grafenwhoer/Hohenfels/Wildflecken/Stettin/Baumholder.

If the "gift" didn't work a screamfest also went into effect.

And Ben, I will tell you what you are saying may be true for the Israeli Armed Forces but it is NOT true for teh US, especially the Army. Automation has been deeply embedded in our forces for decades.

And the specific group I am referring to in my posts are people who have grown up on the automation wave in the US Army and are on their 4 or 5th generation system.

The problem is much of what the Captain, the Gunny, the Colonel and myself have all been sying...too many people have grown enamored with the technology and not enough with the product.

[Tamara]

.........Gunny, When I was a Rifle Company XO, Support Platoon Leader and Battalion S4 in Germany we ran a duty roster amongst the Company XOs, SPT LDR & S4 as to which one of us used our ration card card to buy the 3 lb can of coffee/fifth of Jim Beam/carton of Marlboros to give to the local national (could be a German or an expatriot Pole, Czech, Ukrainian or Lithuanian....all on the same post at the same time) who was running the wash rack/ASP/fuel point in order to get it open on a Sunday, get your ratty 5 tons vehicles passed inspection (because you are 3 years out on the fielding schedule for the new ones) accept home station accounts to pay for fuel) at Grafenwhoer/Hohenfels/Wildflecken/Stettin/Baumholder.
..........

The military taught many of us to be horders so to have plenty of stuff to barter with.

[bigross86]

I think an important distinction needs to be made here.

I am NOT referring to ops or anything of that sort. I was gunner both in the Company XO and CO's tanks, and I was a gunner in the brigade CO's tank. I loved listening in on the radio during exercises, and I loved trying to keep track of everything in my head while I was searching for targets. I know that such orders are never passed down by email or anything like that.

Moreover, I was also in charge of our company ops center, our C4i. When I had to pass orders to our forces or patrols in the field, I did it by getting on to the radio and telling them what to do RIGHT NOW.

However, when I needed things from the battalion, or our sister company, things that weren't urgent or ops centered, email worked just fine. Think about the situation: I'm in the ops center in our company outpost, and I need to let battalion know how much food we need for the next week, for 60 people, including a platoon outpost. I need to know how much food the platoon outpost has left, and I need to know how much we have left. Finding out how much we have left at our outpost is easy, I tell the chef to make me a list. But then you have the platoon outpost telling me, and I need to tell battalion.

Which do you think makes more sense? For me to call the battalion ops center (which is a VERY busy place), hogging a phone line for the 20 minutes it takes to pass the list on, and confirm that the list is read properly? For me to print up a list, and then divert one of my patrols, taking it off the border fence for the 45 minutes it takes to drive 20 minutes to battalion, 5 minutes to deliver the list and 20 minute drive back? Or should I just have the platoon email me, and I'll email battalion, who in turn will email brigade, who will email logistics, who will have a truck come to base in 2 days delivering everything I need, EXACTLY according to the list I sent?

Alternatively, instead of one platoon outpost, I've got 3 pillboxes, each with 3 soldiers in it, who will be staying there for a week. They are an isolated, self-contained unit, and only a patrol can open their compound to deliver supplies for them. Do I get on the radio to all 3 pillboxes, hogging the band with non-operational minutiae, such as how many rolls of toilet paper they have? Or do I tell them to email me?

I was a combat soldier. Never in my entire service did I ever have a desk job, even C4I duty came hand in hand with being the CO/XO's sharpshooter and radio operator. In my experience, email was a communications tool to be utilized just like any other tool, and each tool had its time and place to be used. If I wanted to give orders for the entire unit to hear, I'd use the radio. If I needed to ask a personal question or chew out a patrol for being 30 minutes late, I'd call the patrol sergeant and yell at him over the phone. If I needed logistics or something like that, I'd use email. Each tool has its place.

Taking that into personal life, the same thing holds true. There are times when a face-to-face works best, there are times when a phone conversation or email are best.

The previous post was more against the Captain's assertion that people on their smartphones need to be put out of their misery.

[Tamara]

.........Do I get on the radio to all 3 pillboxes, hogging the band with non-operational minutiae, such as how many rolls of toilet paper they have? Or do I tell them to email me?
...........

And what's wrong with the radio?

One of the things I did in the Navy was generate the UNREP message a day or two before the rendezvous. Going around to each department head to see what they needed when we met up with the supply ship.

Now I'm not really talking about going to each department head here; I'm talking about a radio message my unit sent out to the supply ship. We met up with them every so often and hence, sent them a detailed radio message of what we needed.

So what's wrong with the radio?

As far as supplies and logistics being "non-operational minutiae", just remember,......an Army travels on its stomach......and I suspect the same can apply to a ship.

[bigross86]

Entirely different situations. I've got one frequency to use, and depending on the AO I'm working in, that means I've got 2 or 3 roving patrols, 1 or 2 foot patrols or ambushes, 2-3 pillboxes, guard towers, and whoever else is in my AO at the moment. I can't block the entire net for 203- minutes gathering logistics.

And yes, it's non-operational minutiae, in the fact that I refer to "Patrol A, go there", "Foot Patrol 1, what's your status" and "Control this is Pillbox 1, there's 30 kids throwing stones at us again", and the like as operational. "Pillbox 1, how many rolls of TP do you guys have left?" is not operational.

By the way, as long as we're on the subject. When you sent a detailed radio message of what you needed to the supply ship: How many times did they screw up, not giving you things you needed, or giving you things you didn't ask for, or not enough of things you needed? When you're talking over the radio, there are many more opportunities to miss a word, hear something else, get confused, etc... When you are reading an email and following a list, it's much harder to screw that up. Either you can read the entire email, or you can't.

[Tamara]

.......By the way, as long as we're on the subject. When you sent a detailed radio message of what you needed to the supply ship: How many times did they screw up, not giving you things you needed, or giving you things you didn't ask for, or not enough of things you needed? When you're talking over the radio, there are many more opportunities to miss a word, hear something else, get confused, etc... When you are reading an email and following a list, it's much harder to screw that up. Either you can read the entire email, or you can't.

I honestly don't recall.

I do believe, however, that those type of messages were typed and transmitted, not spoken.

[Doktor]

Entirely different situations. I've got one frequency to use, and depending on the AO I'm working in, that means I've got 2 or 3 roving patrols, 1 or 2 foot patrols or ambushes, 2-3 pillboxes, guard towers, and whoever else is in my AO at the moment. I can't block the entire net for 203- minutes gathering logistics.

And yes, it's non-operational minutiae, in the fact that I refer to "Patrol A, go there", "Foot Patrol 1, what's your status" and "Control this is Pillbox 1, there's 30 kids throwing stones at us again", and the like as operational. "Pillbox 1, how many rolls of TP do you guys have left?" is not operational.

By the way, as long as we're on the subject. When you sent a detailed radio message of what you needed to the supply ship: How many times did they screw up, not giving you things you needed, or giving you things you didn't ask for, or not enough of things you needed? When you're talking over the radio, there are many more opportunities to miss a word, hear something else, get confused, etc... When you are reading an email and following a list, it's much harder to screw that up. Either you can read the entire email, or you can't.

Ben, lower ranked guys in logistics are professionals/full time employees or conscripts?