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  • JOgershok
    replied
    Originally posted by Maxor View Post
    I am right around their age (27) and did an enlistment with them then worked as a contractor along side them for a few years. I was making the joke about airforce personal as one of them.
    Sorry, it just did not come across that way.

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  • Maxor
    replied
    Originally posted by JOgershok View Post
    Maxor,

    While I understand it was to be a joke, it just was not funny to me. My two children, age 28 and 30 are in the Air Force and I understand it is a much better quality of life than that of the grunt and I support their decisions to join the Air Force. But make no bones about it, most of the folks in the Air Force are not "warriors." PJ's, CCT's and fighter pilots are the tip of the spear but without the REMF's they could not do their jobs. Actually, that is the function that many contractors and what they do to support the current theater of operations in Iraq.
    I am right around their age (27) and did an enlistment with them then worked as a contractor along side them for a few years. I was making the joke about airforce personal as one of them.

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  • JOgershok
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    Maxor,
    What's scary about this post is that I had a classmate who cross-commissioned into the Air Force and then made a stink about silo duty because of the assignment of women which would be too tempting and violate his religion. He was a good kid, but I found it to be too much for me. I guess I never spent enough time in a silo . . .
    Sounds like his faith was sorely lacking. 1 Corinthians 10:13
    No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it. NIV

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  • JOgershok
    replied
    I am seeing Guard and Reserve Units on their second deployment here in Iraq. They have the edge but for the life of me, I am believing that some of these units have lost their will to look like they care. Iraq was won because the people believed we would turn it around and that we cared enough to stay. Afghanistan is a different story.

    We "Old Farts" are taking care of the troops, mentally, physically, and psychologically, supervising guard forces, and bring the "beans and bullets" to the troops. Some of us are armed and some are not but in any case, we are here to support the effort. Some removed the IED materials from the numerous ammunition supply depots that Saddam had scattered throughout Iraq; some of those contractors died doing it too.

    Maxor,

    While I understand it was to be a joke, it just was not funny to me. My two children, age 28 and 30 are in the Air Force and I understand it is a much better quality of life than that of the grunt and I support their decisions to join the Air Force. But make no bones about it, most of the folks in the Air Force are not "warriors." PJ's, CCT's and fighter pilots are the tip of the spear but without the REMF's they could not do their jobs. Actually, that is the function that many contractors and what they do to support the current theater of operations in Iraq.
    Last edited by JOgershok; 01 Apr 09,, 09:25.

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  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    That scares the hell out of me.

    ***

    I was hoping for a better answer becaue come hell or highwater, you will be require to hold off two army groups.
    Sir,

    At the small unit level, the capability is there right now. The problem is that OIF and OEF have been fought from fixed site HQs without the need for highly synchronized higher level staff actions. These muscles have atrophied without CTC rotations dedicated to the high intensity fight (however, small units have fough highly intense battles).

    Another five years without a break in DEP/OPTEMPO and there will be problems, essentially all the NCOs (and officers) with the gunnery know how that could jump start the high intensity training at the drop of a hat will be retiring or too far up the chain to be able to mentor the soldiers and junior-to-mid-level NCOs that didn't grow up living from gunnery training cycle to gunnery training cycle. At this point, the ramp up to successful gunnery rotations, staff exercises, jumping TOCs, etc., will be very steep.

    We'll have to call some of you ol' farts back onto active duty :))

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by osage18 View Post
    If it is high-intensity conflict, then Hell No. We are not.
    That scares the hell out of me.

    Originally posted by osage18 View Post
    I know. Yours didn't happen.
    You can thank God for that but that's neither here nor there. You were measuring yourself against our yardstick and all I did was to show you our yardstick.

    Originally posted by osage18 View Post
    I guess we'll never know.
    I was hoping for a better answer becaue come hell or highwater, you will be require to hold off two army groups.

    Originally posted by osage18 View Post
    It might not be.
    You may very well be right but the point is, can you make do?

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  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by Maxor View Post
    Whats important to remember is that since the 50's all of you army guys have been essentially useless, you are just there to fight limited engagements and that in any real conflict us wise elisted personal will send up the missiles and our officers to kill everyone and everything as we sit in our hardened shelters hoping to hell that 1. we brought enough women into the shelters
    Maxor,
    What's scary about this post is that I had a classmate who cross-commissioned into the Air Force and then made a stink about silo duty because of the assignment of women which would be too tempting and violate his religion. He was a good kid, but I found it to be too much for me. I guess I never spent enough time in a silo . . .

    Leave a comment:


  • Maxor
    replied
    Heh a remf is going to weigh in here. I think that the military of today and the military of yesteryear are probably about equally tough but in different ways to be able to meet the challenges of their day.

    Whats important to remember is that since the 50's all of you army guys have been essentially useless, you are just there to fight limited engagements and that in any real conflict us wise elisted personal will send up the missiles and our officers to kill everyone and everything as we sit in our hardened shelters hoping to hell that 1. we brought enough women into the shelters with us and 2. That we aren't directly targeted so that when it cools down enough out there and the mre's run out that we can repopulate. Who knows maybe some of you dirt crawlers will have mutated into something cool and glowing by that time.


    (yes the whole post is a joke but honestly the army is a different life form than us wise USAF people)
    Last edited by Maxor; 01 Apr 09,, 15:28.

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  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by JOgershok View Post
    The current generation (this is not necessarly the current military but is the pool from which they are able to choose) is weaker and fatter than previous generations.

    As a society, we are lazy.

    Problem is this is NOT what this thread was to address.
    Those stats are talking over the hills guys like you and 7thsf (over 25), not the young Turks scrambling on the sides of mountains in Astan ;)

    Seriously, the military is drawing from a more out of shape pool of recruits, but nothing that few months of heat in Sand Hill won't melt away. The Nintendo generation used to be able to handle the 10 mile Friday runs my platoon would do every other week and the X-Box generation is humping the Korengal just fine today.

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  • JOgershok
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    By stating that another generation is tougher, the converse has to be true in this logical construction - the other generation(s) is weaker.
    The current generation (this is not necessarly the current military but is the pool from which they are able to choose) is weaker and fatter than previous generations.

    Latest Obesity Statistics

    USA Obesity Rates Reach Epidemic Proportions
    • 58 Million Overweight; 40 Million Obese; 3 Million morbidly Obese
    • Eight out of 10 over 25's Overweight
    • 78% of American's not meeting basic activity level recommendations
    • 25% completely Sedentary
    • 76% increase in Type II diabetes in adults 30-40 yrs old since 1990
    As a society, we are lazy.

    Problem is this is NOT what this thread was to address.

    Leave a comment:


  • osage18
    replied
    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    Could someone here please tell me where in the hell I called any of the currently serving sodiers weak. What in my reply and question deserved an obviously arrogant reply as this?
    You said:

    During my eventful but short enlistment I noticed many changes beginning to take place. I could see that the changes in training were also leading to lax standards. I was one of the last cycles to complete basic where a drill could cuss you up one side and down another, and dare fall asleep in a class. You were going to get hit with something, just hope all the DI had was his hat, which they where by the way, deadly with. I could go on and on with what would be lawsuit material and horror stories today.
    My units had the best mechanics, the best cooks, all in all the best support personel I have ever seen. (of course expect nothing less from Ft Bragg) We where kick ass soldiers that would have been offended by DoD workers powdering our fannies and cleaning up or doing our job. However, just prior to my ETS I was beginning to see the changes. I had a Ranger buddy that retired about 9 years after I got out and told me that I had made the right decision to get out at the right time. He knew what my attitude was
    and he knew that I probably would not have coped very well with what was happening. It wasn't easy for him either being an old school Ranger. Some just have higher levels on thier bullshit-o-meter that enable them to put up with more.
    Let me sum it up:
    1. You noticed changes starting to take place while on active duty. You felt standards were more lax then when you enlisted. You were upset that Drill Sergeants could not "cuss" trainees or strike them. You feel that if those events happened today, trainees would sue the army and be scarred for life.
    The support elements of units that you were in were the best. You were a kick ass soldier and would have been offended if a contractor performed any kind of service function for you. Or as you so eloquently put it "powder your fanny, clean up after you or do your job". You view your separation of service as a good judgement call because you "wouldn't have coped very well with what was happening", which I can only assume is in reference to the negative changes and lax standards you mentioned earlier. You also apparently know an "old school Ranger" who shared your sentiments. You also note that your internal "bull shit meter" has a relatively low tolerance, only bolstering your justification for separation for service.

    Is that about right?

    So it appears:
    1. You feel that the Army was becoming weaker because of negative changes in training and lax standards; implying that those who came after you, aren't as well trained and have adhered to lower standards than you did.
    2. You feel that the Soldiers that provided support were superior to contractors that perform the same function, and military personnel today who recieve support from civilian contractors are having their fannies powdered, being cleaned up after and their jobs are done for them.
    3. You conclude by saying that you separated from service at the right time, because the army was becoming weaker, for the reasons mentioned in #1. This opinion is also shared by your "old school Ranger" friend.
    4. You also say that those who stayed in service and continue to serve have a higher tolerance on their "bull shit meter", which apparently aides them in tolerating all of the bullshit training and low/lax standards.

    It is easy to see that you feel the Army was tougher, harder, better, etc when you were in it, and because it became less of the aforementioned adjectives, you chose to leave it, which you feel was right. That implies that the army you left (the one that exists now) is less tough, hard or better than when you were in. I understood your message loud and clear. My response was appropriate. I think you are upset that I called the proverbial spade.

    but you know nothing of me
    I read many of your posts, which is why I was so disappointed in what you wrote and implied.

    As a member or the VFW, I support our vets, especially the ones who came before me. My mission has not ended as I support them now with my time and money.
    Ditto.

    My comments were obviously misinterpreted, but yours was quite clear.
    I thought your comments were also quite clear. I'm glad mine were.

    Seems to me that the difference between us is not only in the era of which we served, but how we treat those who came before us.
    I have nothing but respect for those who came before me. I only stated a few truths about the Army generation before mine, which served during relative peace; compared to the contemporary environment. A fact.

    you are the one with a chip on his shoulder
    I just call them like I see them, sir.

    Adios pal, and BTW, thanks for your service.
    And thank you for yours.

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  • osage18
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Is you the generation ready for the next war?
    If it is high-intensity conflict, then Hell No. We are not.

    Historically, there is an arguement that you are not.
    You are correct.

    My "2 and a half war" doctrine meant killing the USSR and China while keeping North Korea down. Your "2 war" doctrine is Iraq and Afghanistan. Hardly in the same league.
    I know. Yours didn't happen.

    While I have no doubt that your III Corps could run circles around my VII Corps, I have serious questions that you could hold off the 1st Moscow and the 16th Guards, especially when they start tossing nukes.
    I guess we'll never know.



    The point here is that we have a historic example that your war may not be the next one we fight.
    It might not be.

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  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    I don't seem to be making my point successfully for some reason here. More than likely its the generation gap of which we speak, so I will refrain from any further posts in this thread before I earn myself my first timeout.
    Disagreement doesn't equal timeout, so my locking the thread comment wasn't a subtle hint and was general in nature. It's just that most of us military apes are Type A folks and I don't want the thread to create bad blood between folks.

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  • Blue
    replied
    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    You had time to think about how your experiences changed you. You didn't get thrusted into an alternate reality where yesterday your best friend was blown up and today your in a chat room with your wife and troubled about whether or not to share your burden with her and worry her or to keep it to yourself and make that homecoming even more difficult.
    I think any homecoming is difficult. I wouldn't call the plane ride home quality time to think about what has transpired over the last few months. And at least our guys are getting a welcome home now. Thats all I will say about that.
    There's an expectation that call or email since it is available, and then when you change of mission to place where it's not available, you worry about the stress your family is going through because you couldn't tell them that you were going into an internet black hole and wonder if they're assuming the worst.
    Try six months without so much as a letter.
    I think we delude ourselves when we try to stack generations against one another. Each generation carrying the fighting for their nation suffers from different challenges and all should be celebrated.
    I agree with this
    One area may get easier, but another area becomes harder.
    By the points you made here, I don't totally agree, but don't discount it either.

    By stating that another generation is tougher, the converse has to be true in this logical construction - the other generation(s) is weaker.
    Not saying that they were physically "tougher" but the conditions and times were. IMO, of course.

    An observation I make about the post cell/internet gen (PCIN from here out) is that they are in constant communication by texting or voice or IM, ALL THE TIME. They are addicted to it. I have seen it in my daughter and even quite a few thirty somethings. I can see how the absence of that could be interpreted as hardship by them, but it would be laughable to older vets.

    I don't seem to be making my point successfully for some reason here. More than likely its the generation gap of which we speak, so I will refrain from any further posts in this thread before I earn myself my first timeout.

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  • BadKharma
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    Never heard of Haney, but the toughest schools across the Army let the training beat you down, not a-hole leadership styles. The endstate is discipline, and self-discipline isn't motivated through fear and punishment.
    I believe that is a reference to the book Inside Delta Force, Joger will need to confirm however.

    I agree that leadership is definately the key to military success. Not only in training but also in operations. With one exception which appears to have resolved itself the debate is on the civil side if you feel the need to lock it down however thats fine.

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