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  • Originally posted by Ray View Post
    Fighting a war is an issue of graduated response.

    It is also the employment of optimal weapon systems.

    To kill one soldier with a PGM is effective, but wasteful.
    That is why we don't use such methods, we simply engage at greater ranges, (terrain permitting), with our rifles, (they are I presume from what you have said), more accurate. That or the terrain is more suited or it may be because of our issuing of every soldier with at least a 4x scope to allow them to aim at these ranges.

    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    That has to be understood, unless you have the wealth of the world at your disposal to squander.

    If it were so, then the US and the UK would not be keeling over as it is doing right now.
    We don't just call in air strikes at every contact we have, although we do have the opportunity to, it would be an unnecessary waste. We simply sometimes engage at greater distances, our equipment and training allows us to do this.
    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    That said, if we are only to look at ‘eliminated the enemy before they could get into the effective range of their weapons.’, then why have the different arms and services or have a Air Force and a Navy. Club them in the infantry so that as soon as the enemy mobilises the Infantry clobbers them?!
    I am talking about Afghanistan, (engagement ranges in Iraq were significantly shorter), where the enemy don't have an air force, or a navy or for that matter armour, this has to be understood.

    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    It is not the task of the Infantry to engage BVR.
    We do not engage BVR, we simply engage at ranges greater than 300m when the situation allows it.

    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    Warfare is a graduated affair and each segment of that graduated increment is addressed by the right weapon of war and it is coordinated by the highest HQ in the theatre and then slowly handed over to the others as the operations progresses closer.
    Agreed, in a full scale war this is a case where it is possible.

    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    It is first the air that takes on in a strategic mode and then in a tactical mode..

    Then, the artillery.

    Then the tanks and the mines (in various types of categorisation),

    .And then the infantry.

    To feel that the infantry should be right there where the air is to take on, is ridiculous!
    We are not fighting a war where the enemy are arranged like a proper army, it would be easier if we were. There are no strategic targets for our air to bombard apart from those in Pakistan, there use is purely tactical in this theatre, even B1B's are used for air strikes. A lot of the time we go out and draw out the Taliban to allow us to engage and crush them, it is rare that we encounter a fixed position in which they dig in, in those cases they are blown to pieces and the infantry do the clearing up. (This is apart from the ambushes that are set for the Taliban)

    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    One must also understand that ammunition and its resupply is not infinite.

    Or is it that in the western armies, as the ammunition depletes, there is instant resupply?

    Do let me know how that is achieved..

    Will be an education!
    We have very good fire discipline, just because we engage at ranges greater than 300m doesn't mean we don't hit the mark, good optics, very accurate weapons and good marksmanship mean that we don't just fire our ammunition away. Surprisingly little ammunition is used and for the same result, but from less dangerous position, I would not endanger my men needlessly when there is a better way and I presume you wouldn't either.
    Last edited by Shiny Capstar; 08 Oct 08,, 16:28.
    Nulli Secundus
    People always talk of dying for their country, and never of making the other bastard die for his

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ray View Post
      The problem with you western chaps is that you want to be the bestest, fastest and the strongest everywhere.

      Not possible.
      With the new technology the US in working on, exoskeletons and the like, they in the future will be the fastest and strongest on a soldier level at least. And on a strategic level the US reins supreme.



      Originally posted by Ray View Post
      Keep at it and the Taliban will win.
      How so?
      Nulli Secundus
      People always talk of dying for their country, and never of making the other bastard die for his

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ray View Post
        That said, if we are only to look at ‘eliminated the enemy before they could get into the effective range of their weapons.’, then why have the different arms and services or have a Air Force and a Navy. Club them in the infantry so that as soon as the enemy mobilises the Infantry clobbers them?!
        Sir,

        I fail to see why you would not grab an advantage that is inherantly denied the enemy. A simple $200 scope adds wonders to accuracy and range.

        Originally posted by Ray View Post
        It is not the task of the Infantry to engage BVR.
        It's not beyond visual range, Sir. Our soldiers historically have engaged at those ranges before during the Boer War and WWI.

        Originally posted by Ray View Post
        To feel that the infantry should be right there where the air is to take on, is ridiculous!
        Sir, is that not we have asked of infanteers long before the age of artillery bombardment?

        Originally posted by Ray View Post
        One must also understand that ammunition and its resupply is not infinite.
        No, it's not, Sir but technology can compensate. We've gone from a couple horns of black gunpowder and about 10-20 musket balls to a couple of hundred rounds.

        Originally posted by Ray View Post
        Do let me know how that is achieved..

        Will be an education!
        Sir, you've fallen into the same trap I've been in and continues to be in. I view the Fulda Gap as the largest, deadliest, and the meanest gathering of armies the world has ever seen and I view that we've gone downhill from there.

        The only problem is that if our presuccsors had that view, we still be riding horses and gathering our weapons from the nearest tree.

        I started my career with the FN-FAL C1. No scope and once you run out ammo, you use that thing as a club but the hitting power of the 7.62NATO is what I use to drop bears and moose. The 5.56 does not give me such confidence.

        This being said, there's a reason why armies are moving towards the 5.x mm. The Chinese are latest convert with their 5.8mm. With the addition of a simple scope, the lethality of the 5.x dramatically increase.

        At some point, Sir, you have to let the new guys use new techniques and new technologies because the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 08 Oct 08,, 17:29.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          I started my career with the FN-FAL C1. No scope and once you run out ammo, you use that thing as a club but the hitting power of the 7.62NATO is what I use to drop bears and moose. The 5.56 does not give me such confidence.

          This being said, there's a reason why armies are moving towards the 5.x mm. The Chinese are latest convert with their 5.8mm. With the addition of a simple scope, the lethality of the 5.x dramatically increase.
          Agreed Sir, with a scope the 5.56 is a lot more useful, even if you don't drop them first time you can keep hitting them even at range until they do, although in my experience a good hit from a 5.56 may not kill the target but it usually takes them out of the fight. In places like Afghanistan a round which drops, (and keeps down), the target in one shot every time would be useful though, one of the reasons we keep the gimpy, the extra firepower comes in useful at times.
          Nulli Secundus
          People always talk of dying for their country, and never of making the other bastard die for his

          Comment


          • Colonel,

            One must understand external and terminal ballistics and the wound that it effects on the enemy soldier at different ranges.

            One must understand how a battle develops.

            In defence, it develops the way I have tried to explain earlier. It must be understood that there is no assembly line that is feeding ammunition all the time on a conveyor belt! It is not a factory.

            That is why you have what is known as on weapon, first line and second line ammunition. It is finite.

            Resupply can occur when there is a lull in the battle.

            Your army is the auto fire army and ours is the single shot. There are good reasons for it.

            We await till we are sure of our ''kill'' and not hope for the best at long ranges.

            We also have scopes and it is not that we don't. But we insist on fire discipline and not poop off ammunition, just because we are getting yellow in the pants.

            There is also another reason why we keep our powder dry till the last moment.

            If we break the attack at the last moment, it make it all the more difficult for the enemy to launch the reserves. Daylight will break and then the enemy will be totally exposed.

            NVD does help, but nothing like daylight.

            And you are aware that I am not a peacetime soldier! Been there, done that! In War and CI.

            I do agree that a war is a different kettle of fish and not kindergarten stuff as CI.

            We have seen four or is it five wars and 30 years of CI. ;)

            We also read pamphlets of foreign armies too!

            The British Brigadier has spoken. How many Indian Brigadiers have said all is lost?
            Last edited by Ray; 08 Oct 08,, 19:26.


            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

            HAKUNA MATATA

            Comment


            • One conclusion as a result of recent combat experience is that the performance of the small-calibre, high-velocity rounds (especially the 5.56mm NATO) is erratic; sometimes they work well, sometimes they don't, depending on their impact velocity, the precise manufacturing details and the angle at which they strike the target. There is more on the subject of small-arms terminal effectiveness HERE. These problems, combined with the poor barrier penetration of the SCHV rounds, have led to a revival of interest in 7.62x51 rifles, with manufacturers such as FN and HK offering 7.62mm versions of their new 5.56mm weapons (SCAR Heavy and HK417 respectively).
              ASSAULT RIFLES AND THEIR AMMUNITION:

              Scopes wont help but at shorter ranges, the effectiveness will increase.

              The battle must be understood in its holity!


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                One reason it is a weapon of a day and age gone by because it is not automatic or semi-automatic. It does not have a magazine. And that's a huge thing.
                Huh? What are you talking about? SLR = Self-Loading Rifle; it had everything you mentioned, except full-auto fire... which had already been available in its original design (FAL), but omitted for very good reasons by UK and India (dunno about Canada).

                Comment


                • Colonel,

                  I think the whole attitude of looking at war is a cultural thing.

                  We, historically, believed Dulce et Decorum Est, Pro Patria Mori.

                  That is why we are still not concerned about our soldiers dying for the Nation. I know it is waste of good lives. Hence, we like to gamble with death.

                  You people are more aware and have realised the true worth of life and existence and so you have different views how to approach war.

                  Take Iraq and Afghanistan, you want instant fixes.

                  Take Kashmir, it is 30 years and it shall be more. Someone will tire out, but it wont be us! ;)


                  "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                  I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                  HAKUNA MATATA

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ray View Post
                    The British Brigadier has spoken. How many Indian Brigadiers have said all is lost?
                    With all due respect Brigadier Sir , he did not say that.
                    sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                    Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                      Not a valid comparison. Colt Commando is more in the league with AKS-74U than AK-47. The M-16 with 20 in. and M-4 with 14.5 in. will outshoot an AK-47, though their real counterpart is the AK-74 series rifles.

                      In the 100 meter fight you carry a Colt Commando for, I don't see why it needs 300 meters effective range.
                      The operative words in the original post were "qualify the rifle"... and it was meant as a semi-humorous reference, in case you didn't catch OOE's reaction.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ray View Post
                        Take Kashmir, it is 30 years and it shall be more. Someone will tire out, but it wont be us! ;)
                        A quick fix Sir?............Operation Banner 38 years, longest Operation in British History.
                        You cannot compare internal security duties to Iraq and Afghanistan.
                        sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                        Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
                          With all due respect Brigadier Sir , he did not say that.

                          What did he exactly say?

                          He said, "We're not going to win this war".
                          British commander says war in Afghanistan cannot be won | Reuters

                          We will win this war, if the strategy is right and troops made available.


                          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                          HAKUNA MATATA

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cactus View Post
                            Huh? What are you talking about? SLR = Self-Loading Rifle; it had everything you mentioned, except full-auto fire... which had already been available in its original design (FAL), but omitted for very good reasons by UK and India (dunno about Canada).
                            Ok my conception of the SLR is the gun where you have to manually put in 6 rounds into the chamber and then the gun would self load every time you fire the SLR whereas oppose to the automatic or semi automatic gun, you just clip in a magazine and it would load the bullets into the chamber.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
                              A quick fix Sir?............Operation Banner 38 years, longest Operation in British History.
                              You cannot compare internal security duties to Iraq and Afghanistan.
                              Why, take the 100 year war.That is longer than 38 years war if you wish!

                              Those days they were made of sterner stuff.

                              Our Army has imbibed some sterling qualities of the British and we hold it dear. It is the British who have forgotten their traditions that they taught their Empire!


                              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                              HAKUNA MATATA

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                                Ok my conception of the SLR is the gun where you have to manually put in 6 rounds into the chamber and then the gun would self load every time you fire the SLR whereas oppose to the automatic or semi automatic gun, you just clip in a magazine and it would load the bullets into the chamber.
                                Please read the tech manuals.

                                I am sure you are joking!


                                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                                HAKUNA MATATA

                                Comment

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