Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Cruisers - how are they different from battleships?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
    Scharnhorst was hit by gunfire from HMS Ardent before sinking her.

    She was also hit by gunfire and a torpedo by HMS Acasta. Before she sank her also.

    As for taking 3 salvos to hit Glorious, How many rounds did Mass fire to get the 5 hits on Jean Bart? A ship tied up in port.

    Long range naval gunfire is more about luck then equipment. One of the reasons the US BB line waited till they could see "The whites of their eyes"

    *Hit perhaps but no notable damage and reports also state the three British ships were not carrying radar at all. If they were not carring radar then they wouldnt have even knew the two were there until they were within sight or smoke which in either case meant it was too late, The German ships no doubt had radar, if they had radar then they also had FC radar and obviously pretty descent radar at that to be firing at some of the ranges they were (shorter then their longest hit).

    As far as Mass goes, I dont know but I will try and look at a descent source, I have a few. If you can recall the attacks the Brits made upon them at Mers-el-Kebir, the admiral actually waited past the time he was told since nobody really wanted to attack them in the first place but would have rather had their co-operation instead of the uncertainty of being used by the Germans against them. The very same for the British attacks at Taranto.

    IMO, naval gunfire coupled to advanced fire control systems arent about luck at all. I think you will find there are enough examples from WWII forward from several different countries gun fire control systems that would support that view. Particularly a main battery against 5-6 inch destroyer guns that cant shoot that far nor see that far.

    And Leyte wasnt about the range of their FC (the cruisers with 6-8 inch guns opened fire before the BB's did). Why fire on them from such far range and take a chance given the conditions they had at the time. All conditions were perfect according to most books except for the amount of AP ammo they had aboard.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 19 Dec 12,, 06:33.
    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

    Comment


    • #62
      How many rounds did Mass fire to get the 5 hits on Jean Bart? A ship tied up in port.

      *Actually Grape, she is credited with not only wrecking the Jean Bart, which she did but also credited with fighting off air attacks, land attack from El Hank and helping sink two DD's. Its all right here in her war diary.

      http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAV...13Nov_1942.pdf
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

      Comment


      • #63
        the point of my post is that Mass was firing on a stationary target. She could, and did walk her rounds onto target. Scharnhorst couldn't. Can't walk rounds onto a moving target.

        Long range Naval Gunfire is more luck than skill. Especially against a moving target.

        Probable Error (cone of fire) at long distance is huge. Even from a stationary stable gun, From a moving platform its even more difficult.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
          the point of my post is that Mass was firing on a stationary target. She could, and did walk her rounds onto target. Scharnhorst couldn't. Can't walk rounds onto a moving target.

          Long range Naval Gunfire is more luck than skill. Especially against a moving target.

          Probable Error (cone of fire) at long distance is huge. Even from a stationary stable gun, From a moving platform its even more difficult.
          And yet you had running gunfire battles at range such as Jutland, The Hood and Bismark, The night battles of Savo Island and several others that history records. I can agree some what with your point of luck being a factor but I would certainly disagree with luck being the only factor in hitting a moving or stationary target at long range on any given occassion. If anything that would prevent a topside hit it would IMO be the overs and unders that account for most.
          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
            And yet you had running gunfire battles at range such as Jutland, The Hood and Bismark, The night battles of Savo Island and several others that history records. I can agree some what with your point of luck being a factor but I would certainly disagree with luck being the only factor in hitting a moving or stationary target at long range on any given occassion. If anything that would prevent a topside hit it would IMO be the overs and unders that account for most.
            Read what I wrote. Never said luck was the ONLY factor. But it is the major factor in long range fire. Its an inherent shortcoming of a gun. Elongated Range PE.

            Also in those naval battles compare # of rounds fired to # of rounds hit.

            Battle of Jutland is the easiest (I have a few books handy)

            British fired 4534 rounds and achieved 123 hits.

            a 2.7% hit ratio

            Germans fired 3597 rounds and achieved 122 hits.

            a 3.4% hit ratio

            Hit ratios during WW2 were all less than 10%

            Bismark vs hood

            Bismark had around a 5.3% hit ratio.
            PoW was 5.3% If she was the only RN ship to score hits.

            Overall German HR was 4.4%
            Overall RN was 2.2%
            Last edited by Gun Grape; 20 Dec 12,, 03:44.

            Comment


            • #66
              Back to Cruisers.

              Of the 18 most decorated US Navy ships of WW2,( those that were awarded 15 or more battle stars) 3 of them were New Orleans Class Cruisers. Fitted out with nine 8in guns in 3 turrets.

              They held the line in the early years of the war. 3 sunk in 42 at Salvo Island. New Orleans class ships took part in every major battle in the Pacific. Remarkable act since there were only 4 left after Salvo Island

              ( for Bilgepump 5 of the ships on the list were Flecther Class DDs )
              Attached Files

              Comment


              • #67
                Booklet of general plans CA-34, USS Astoria, New Orleans class

                http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/ca34.pdf

                Comment


                • #68
                  Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War | Eric Lacroix, Linton Wells II | digital library BookOS

                  Japanese Cruiser e-book
                  sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                  If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Since you brought up Japanese Cruisers, One of my favorite was the 4 ship Mogami class.

                    Mogami, Mikuma, Suzuya and Kumano



                    Originally built as light Cruisers (15 6in guns) in compliance with the London treaty, they were later up gunned to Heavy Cruiser (10 8in guns) standards.

                    Later Mogami was transformed to a Cruiser/aircraft carrier.

                    They were one of the few cruisers than had DP main guns. Capable of high angle fire.

                    They were also considered one of the worst designed Cruisers ever.

                    Lore has it that Bull Halsey once said " "If there was a Japanese ship I could feel sorry for at all, it would be the Kumano".
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      One of Mogami during trials. When she still had 15 main guns
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                        Since you brought up Japanese Cruisers, One of my favorite was the 4 ship Mogami class.

                        They were also considered one of the worst designed Cruisers ever.

                        Lore has it that Bull Halsey once said " "If there was a Japanese ship I could feel sorry for at all, it would be the Kumano".
                        So tell us why they were considered the worst and why they're favorites of yours! :)
                        “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                        ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                          So tell us why they were considered the worst
                          As built they were far slower than the preceding class of cruisers.

                          It was all about compromise. They wanted to stay within the London treaty. But with the option of up-gunning in the future.

                          So she was built with the armor of a heavy cruiser (8in protection around turrets magazines/ 6in protection for machinery spaces)

                          In order to save weight for that she was under powered. Didn't have room for the standard 2 boilers. With those piped to a single stack. That big stack made her top heavy and unstable

                          They were electrically welded and incorporated aluminum in their superstructure. Gunnery exercises caused the hull to crack. It required every one of them to be rebuilt within their first years of service to remain seaworthy.


                          and why they're favorites of yours! :)
                          They were tough as nails. They could take massive damage and return to fight another day. Plus as a model builder, you can get lost in all the mods that they had. Especially the cool, Mike Spark ish, Cruiser/seaplane carrier.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            They were tough as nails. They could take massive damage and return to fight another day. Plus as a model builder, you can get lost in all the mods that they had. Especially the cool, Mike Spark ish, Cruiser/seaplane carrier.
                            LMAO...I wonder if that guy's NPD allows him to realize he's probably the most-mocked joke on the military areas of the Web...?
                            “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                            ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                            Comment


                            • #74






                              I like Japanese cruisers, particularly their appearence - they have a certain intangible coolness factor, they are quite different from the cruisers built by other countries. Their armor scheme was very unique, in a good way. My favortie is the Takao, but I think they're all interesting ships. They are fun models to build too - I look forward to "laying down" one of them in my desktop shipyard soon. :)

                              If you haven't checked out that Japanese Cruiser e-book link - its the most detailed cruiser book I've ever seen. Its out of print and they want over 200$ for a used hard copy. The PDF is not bad - and its free.
                              Attached Files
                              sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                              If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                great book. Thanks

                                Had never seen it.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X