Ask An Expert- Battleships

[RustyBattleship]

I obtained this measured drawing of the aft Tomahawk platform during a visit to NARA. It shows the platform extending to 38' 6" off the centerline.
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When I look at pictures, I say "this just can't be." In particular, the angled pillars reaching up from the deck below would be nearly vertical at this width. This must be some early drawing that shows things being way too narrow.

The Booklet of General Plans are what they are However, in this picture I have superimposed over them the deck as obtained from the plan above (red) and my best determination of the deckhouse below (blue). The General Plans go out about 4' wider than shown in this measured plan. That 4' extra feet might just do the trick.

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Unfortunately, the shape of the deck on the Booklet of General Plans is no way, no how correct. The diagonal side of the aft deckhouse is the one thing that I think I can say is in the right position with the greatest confidence in the entire model. From Pictures one can see that the aft end of the Tomahawk platform merges with the deckhouse on the right (starboard) side. While the General Plans does this, the position of that merge is about 2 feet outside where the deckhouse is.

Therefore, I can't just follow the Booklet of General plans because it is not right either.

Does anyone have a source the would identify the X/Y coordinates of the corners of the harpoon platform?

This is the challenge of doing things in 3D. When people do 2D plans, a line in the wrong place on one deck does not create an obvious error. When you go to 3D, it does create an obvious error.

You have to remember that the Booklets of GENERAL Drawings are done AFTER the installation plans are issued AND the actual installation is done. Sometimes after the plans are issued, a highter "god" may order a few changes. AND, as time goes on, ADDITIONS are thrown in such as tracks for an A-frame for loading at sea rather than at a solid pier.

Been there, done that.

Now, if you are going by plans of the New Jersey, we installed two ABL's on the aft ends of the aft 03 level deck that were built by FMC (Food Machinery Corporation). Their foundations were a different size and slightly different shape than the other ABL's built by General Dynamics.

So, go by the actual installation drawings because the main reason for the Booklet is to just show you the GENERAL locations of decks, stiffeners, shell plating, equipment, etc. Consider the Booklets as a Class B road map rather than a surveyed meteorlogical chart.

[RustyBattleship]

OOPS! My reply is on the wrong page.

See it down below.

[Battleship IOWA]

Well, I don't know how much experience you have had flying an airplane, but I used to fly Cessnas quite a bit (until I got married - again). We used an aeronautical chart that gave you the locations of landing fields, land marks, directional transmitters, etc. The charts were all marked as to what direction MAGNETIC North was in that area as opposed to TRUE North. You made your flight plan based upon the charts. You have TWO compasses. One for Magnetic and one for true North.

If you plan to land at an airport on the ground, you contacted the control tower that would give you the directions of your downwind leg, crosswind leg, landing leg and which runway to land on (if they had more than one). But things can get more complex, such as Ontario. But that's another story.

If you plan to land on an Aircraft Carrier, their control center will also give you basically the same instructions. However, as you approach the ship you have to watch the Paddles of the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) to go up, down, left, right, wave off or cut your engines to catch hook 2 or 3. But we don't use an LSO anymore on the BIG Carriers. We now use the Fresnel Lens system which is rows of red or green lights to direct your approach.

On the Battleships, we used a control tower operator to get you lined up to the stern and then a live LSO directing you in to the center spot of the circle. You cut your rotors while four men run up with tie down chains so you won't have any wind turbulence until it's safe for the Yellow Gear Tractor to tow you to either to Port or Starboard stowage area to be chained down again. Umm, usually after they have folded the rotor blades as it gets pretty close to Turret III.

Thanks Rusty not being a pilot I count on experts like you. This forum has been very valuable for me. I think I now have enough information to get bids from, content developers.

[Battleship IOWA]

I only see a HUP providing shipboard utility services, transport, and rescue missions for the Navy and general utility for the Army. The Army found them unsuitable for any front line use.

True I found no evidence that a HUP ever did gun fire correction for the Iowa but I figured it would make for a better game than delivering mail. So we will call this a hypothetical mission.
But it will not be our first hypothetical VR experience. Our first VR experience is being made for us for free, by a company called Roqovan http://www.roqovan.com/ in exchange for the use of the ship for a game launch party. Below is a link to a rough draft of the VR experience. It will be one of the most asked question on the Iowa “What if the Iowa and the Yamato ever got in a gun battle”. I am assured by them that we will win.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtns6u620b...18-70.mp4?dl=0

The correct answer is "It depends" Target location could be sent to the ship/gunline using various methods. (map spot, shift from known point...) Then corrections could be sent using more methods.
Shift from known point with corrections from the Observer-Target line or with corrections from the Gun -Target line being the most used. It takes a lot of chatter on the radio between the shooter and the spotter to decide which one to use and they will change based on various factors

Being a sim used by lesser mortals (untrained observers) you would want to use a simple left/right up/down corrections based on observations from your position. Its gotta be fun with a hint of realism

Do we "Guess" corrections? Hell No. Amateurs make guess. We SWAG

We are professionals, the greatest killers on the battlefield.

We are able to look at the impact of the rounds, mentally account for a multitude of variables, Height of observer, distance to target, speed of our platform, distortion from the windshield, relationship between the angle of the observer to target line and the gun to target line, position of the ship and its position on the gun line. (neither the ship or the aircraft are stationary) and and within seconds produce an accurate correction known by the acronym SWAG.

No a "Guess" but a Scientific Wild Ass Guess

Thanks that was funny.

According to http://aviation.watergeek.eu/hup2-panel.html there is a DG and compass in the panel. To hold a constant heading on a featureless horizon with something as unstable as a helicopter you would use some sort of heading indicator. Even in an ASP/PAR environment a heading indicator helps with begin/stop turn/ left/right of course. I believe X planes software has a model of the Hup. You may want to contact Precision Flight Controls https://flypfc.com/ tell them what you are trying to do, they might blow you off but they build all sorts rotorcraft sims and I believe xplanes is the software they use.

Thanks that is very helpful.

If memory serves, wasn't one of the novelties of the HUP-2 an autopilot?

From what I read early HUP’s where hard to fly so they added the vertical stabilizers on the tail adding the autopilot allowed then to be removed.

[bigjimslade]

If memory serves, wasn't one of the novelties of the HUP-2 an autopilot?

[Dazed]

I am developing a virtual reality HUP 2 flight simulator to go with our new HUP 2. Because the HUP is so fragile we will not be able to allow guests to enter.
I am proposing 2 missions SAR and gunfire support for the 16 inch guns.
My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks

According to http://aviation.watergeek.eu/hup2-panel.html there is a DG and compass in the panel. To hold a constant heading on a featureless horizon with something as unstable as a helicopter you would use some sort of heading indicator. Even in an ASR/PAR environment a heading indicator helps with begin/stop turn/ left/right of course. I believe X planes software has a model of the Hup. You may want to contact Precision Flight Controls https://flypfc.com/ tell them what you are trying to do, they might blow you off but they build all sorts rotorcraft sims and I believe xplanes is the software they use.

[bigjimslade]

Another Detective Question: Tomahawk Platform

I obtained this measured drawing of the aft Tomahawk platform during a visit to NARA. It shows the platform extending to 38' 6" off the centerline.

When I look at pictures, I say "this just can't be." In particular, the angled pillars reaching up from the deck below would be nearly vertical at this width. This must be some early drawing that shows things being way too narrow.

The Booklet of General Plans are what they are However, in this picture I have superimposed over them the deck as obtained from the plan above (red) and my best determination of the deckhouse below (blue). The General Plans go out about 4' wider than shown in this measured plan. That 4' extra feet might just do the trick.



Unfortunately, the shape of the deck on the Booklet of General Plans is no way, no how correct. The diagonal side of the aft deckhouse is the one thing that I think I can say is in the right position with the greatest confidence in the entire model. From Pictures one can see that the aft end of the Tomahawk platform merges with the deckhouse on the right (starboard) side. While the General Plans does this, the position of that merge is about 2 feet outside where the deckhouse is.

Therefore, I can't just follow the Booklet of General plans because it is not right either.

Does anyone have a source the would identify the X/Y coordinates of the corners of the harpoon platform?

This is the challenge of doing things in 3D. When people do 2D plans, a line in the wrong place on one deck does not create an obvious error. When you go to 3D, it does create an obvious error.

[Gun Grape]

My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks

The correct answer is "It depends" Target location could be sent to the ship/gunline using various methods. (map spot, shift from known point...) Then corrections could be sent using more methods.
Shift from known point with corrections from the Observer-Target line or with corrections from the Gun -Target line being the most used. It takes a lot of chatter on the radio between the shooter and the spotter to decide which one to use and they will change based on various factors

Being a sim used by lesser mortals (untrained observers) you would want to use a simple left/right up/down corrections based on observations from your position. Its gotta be fun with a hint of realism

Do we "Guess" corrections? Hell No. Amateurs make guess. We SWAG

We are professionals, the greatest killers on the battlefield.

We are able to look at the impact of the rounds, mentally account for a multitude of variables, Height of observer, distance to target, speed of our platform, distortion from the windshield, relationship between the angle of the observer to target line and the gun to target line, position of the ship and its position on the gun line. (neither the ship or the aircraft are stationary) and and within seconds produce an accurate correction known by the acronym SWAG.

No a "Guess" but a Scientific Wild Ass Guess

[RustyBattleship]

I only see a HUP providing shipboard utility services, transport, and rescue missions for the Navy and general utility for the Army. The Army found them unsuitable for any front line use.

That's absolutely true. That's what they were designed for. Not a combat aircraft but for Rescue and Cargo. However, I'm assuming (hoping) we paint ours in the beautiful Navy Blue. The Army colors look like overaged mustard.

[RustyBattleship]

I am developing a virtual reality HUP 2 flight simulator to go with our new HUP 2. Because the HUP is so fragile we will not be able to allow guests to enter.
I am proposing 2 missions SAR and gunfire support for the 16 inch guns.
My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks

Well, I don't know how much experience you have had flying an airplane, but I used to fly Cessnas quite a bit (until I got married - again). We used an aeronautical chart that gave you the locations of landing fields, land marks, directional transmitters, etc. The charts were all marked as to what direction MAGNETIC North was in that area as opposed to TRUE North. You made your flight plan based upon the charts. You have TWO compasses. One for Magnetic and one for true North.

If you plan to land at an airport on the ground, you contacted the control tower that would give you the directions of your downwind leg, crosswind leg, landing leg and which runway to land on (if they had more than one). But things can get more complex, such as Ontario. But that's another story.

If you plan to land on an Aircraft Carrier, their control center will also give you basically the same instructions. However, as you approach the ship you have to watch the Paddles of the LSO (Landing Signal Officer) to go up, down, left, right, wave off or cut your engines to catch hook 2 or 3. But we don't use an LSO anymore on the BIG Carriers. We now use the Fresnel Lens system which is rows of red or green lights to direct your approach.

On the Battleships, we used a control tower operator to get you lined up to the stern and then a live LSO directing you in to the center spot of the circle. You cut your rotors while four men run up with tie down chains so you won't have any wind turbulence until it's safe for the Yellow Gear Tractor to tow you to either to Port or Starboard stowage area to be chained down again. Umm, usually after they have folded the rotor blades as it gets pretty close to Turret III.

[tbm3fan]

I only see a HUP providing shipboard utility services, transport, and rescue missions for the Navy and general utility for the Army. The Army found them unsuitable for any front line use.

[Battleship IOWA]

I am developing a virtual reality HUP 2 flight simulator to go with our new HUP 2. Because the HUP is so fragile we will not be able to allow guests to enter.
I am proposing 2 missions SAR and gunfire support for the 16 inch guns.
My question to the experts is how did a pilot or observer radio back the corrections. Was it simply left 20, right, long & short. Or did the use the compass, North, South and how did they accurately know how far left it really was or do they just guess? Thanks

[RustyBattleship]

Thanks. It would be interesting to see what the offsets are along that level.

There are hundreds of pages to the Mold Loft Offsets. I don't have that many years left in me to copy them all. But if you have a Booklet of General Plans, there is a section view at a frame very close to 119 and they are exactly alike except for identify what compartments are inboard of the shell plating.

[bigjimslade]

Thanks. It would be interesting to see what the offsets are along that level.

[RustyBattleship]

Sorry pal. I've researched the mold loft offsets and there is absolutely no indication that a "knuckle" should be there in the deck.

However, under the Main Deck at frame 119 is a watertight bulkhead welded to the underside of the Main Deck. But that deck is essentially 1 1/2" thick of STS (armor) plate and no welding underside would cause a knuckle as it would on only a 1/4" to 3/8" thick Medium Steel plate.

But there may be a butt strap at that frame. I do not have the deck plating and/or the butt strap location plans. So the next time I go aboard the Iowa, I will inspect the underside of bhd 119 to see if there is one there. If there is, a second butt strap would be on the topside but hidden by the wood decking on top of it.