Originally posted by IDonT
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Bring Back The Iowa Class Discussion And Debate
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This is a sticky topic.
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Originally posted by JA Boomer View PostWow...um, and do you have any ideas of how you might accomplish this task in the Iraqi war without massive civilian casualties.
Point taken
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Originally posted by georgeky View PostHow many civilians were killed when the trade center came down? Do you think our enemies would care how many civilians were killed? They are willing to fight to the last man. We can not win a war until we are. Had Japan not been nuked they would still be fighting. Collateral damage they call it.
The fact that WE DO care about civilian deaths as collateral damage is one of the biggest DIFFERENCES between us and our 'enemies', in this case terrorists. We should remember that, and never loose sight of it. If we do...then we may as we join forces with the terrorists, because we will have joined the club. I exaggerate, but I hope you understand what I am saying.
That WWII reference is outdated. Japan would have lost the war and surrendered either way. The decision to use nuclear weapons to effectively end the war was a difficult decision, and one that is still debated today.
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Originally posted by cuba View PostYou've probably answered this question countless times, but i'm going to ask it anyway. Why do people want the USN to bring it back?"There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge
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Although the cost of refurbishing a battleship is lower than building a new Burke destroyer, the operational cost is vastly different. Burke requires 300 men to operate while the last Iowa class needed 1600+ men. Always look at the operational cost over 25 years (the expected life of a major warship) to determine the real cost."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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Reducing operational costs
Originally posted by gunnut View PostAlthough the cost of refurbishing a battleship is lower than building a new Burke destroyer, the operational cost is vastly different. Burke requires 300 men to operate while the last Iowa class needed 1600+ men. Always look at the operational cost over 25 years (the expected life of a major warship) to determine the real cost.
There seem to be a lot of options available from the students of the Naval Postgraduate Schools Total Ship Systems Engineering projects that could help as well.
For example, in the Joint ACCESS report (PDF), there are a lot of figures about automation given, particularly in the area of Damage Control (p. 159 as numbered, 182 in Adobe).
Another example is the Arsenal Ship Design (PDF) from 1996. In particular, the following sections:
Manpower, Personnel, and Training (p. 9 as numbered, 22 in Adobe).
Reduction in Manning (p. 19 as numbered, 32 in Adobe).
Design for Reduced Manning (p. 24 as numbered, 37 in Adobe).
Special Evolutions (manpower intense tasks and how the crew size is reduced) (p. 32 as numbered, 45 in Adobe).
I realize that these are theoretical exercises, but that doesn't mean they're not good ideas. And maybe using them in the battleships will provide information about how to apply these lessons to other large Navy ships (carriers, resupply, destroyers).
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I would imagine these battleships built in the 1940s don't have a lot of modular parts. Most systems were integrated into the ship. If you want to automate more stuff then the cost could spiral upwards very quickly.
The 1600+ needed to operate an Iowa was the 1980s figure. I think the 1940s version required 2500+ to operate."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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metall part(haul, body) of a modern ship costs less than electronic equipment,
i belive it would cost more to retrofit old ship, than build new from the scratch.
a radar on top of the apache's rotor cost about 5 mil. that is just a small heli, imagine what is involved in the ship.Last edited by omon; 02 Feb 08,, 07:04."Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin
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Originally posted by Stitch View PostBring it back? Bring what back? If you're talking about battleships, IIRC, it was actually cheaper to refurbish a mothballed battleship, than build a new cruiser or destroyer
If you want to refit them with modern systems it will be cheaper to build another DDG.
Smart ship tech could solve some of the manning problems. But whats the price of ripping crap out of the hull and putting this stuff in? Also are the smart ship programs compatible with the 1940s era equipment?
Does the ship able to handle the power requirements to run all the bells and whistles everyone wants to put on it?
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Originally posted by Gun Grape View PostThe first two ships were but not the last two. Why? SecNav wanted to pass it off as a cheap way to build up ship strength. So they took equipment off other ships that were being decommissioned or sitting in reserve status.
Congress authorized 365 million to reactivate and modernize New Jersey because they thought it already had air conditioning and space for the AN/SLQ 32 antennas (so much for the intelligencia of Congressmen).
The truth is, the only air conditioning the ship had (besides WW II dedicated A/C to a couple of electronic spaces - the radio room on the 3rd deck was kept so cold you could hang meat in it) was package air units placed by the doorways to some of the berthing compartments. This was only for her 1968 Viet Nam deployment.
We had to take out two 5"/38 ammo mags to set in six 125 ton duplex air conditioning machines (each the size of a Dodge Ram pickup truck) and another space up forward for two more A/C units (Eight in all). Then we had to design and install the proper vent ducting for those units and 8-inch IPS chill water piping runs to serve new chill water fan coil units to both electronics, command and berthing spaces.
The "housing" for the ECM antennas were those boxy "ears" on the side of the citadel tower for AN/ULQ-6B ECM antennas sticking out on spiderweb-like outriggers.
We were able to shoe-horn in the AN/SLQ-32 consoles into those boxes and mount the antennas on top. The wave guides, however, had to be run down the outside of the boxes so we covered them with 3/4" armor plate.
The fuel tanks had never been opened up for cleaning and we recalled an old timer shipfitter (Eric Pfeffercorn aka Pop Corn) to lay out cutting of the 18-inch diameter sand holes so we could muck out the No.2 bunker oil, sandblast the tanks, polysulfide seal the rivet seams and paint them out.
With the loss of two 5-inch magazines we removed four 5"/38 mounts (85 tons each) and built the Tomahawk deckhouses in their place. We added another 400 tons of HY-80 armor plate and another 400 tons of Medium steel for the conversion.
After Commander (later Captain) Pickering "found" left-over funds from finished ships, post-poned shop projects, and all of the shipyard's overhead funds to complete the ship (365 mil was NOT going to make it) we finished her a month ahead of schedule and 2.3 million UNDER budget.
Iowa was a bit more expensive as it did not have the ECM "ears" and Supships Boston designed a whole new deckhouse that also wrapped around the front of the tower. The main leg of the mast was totally inadequate and had to be renewed (we used the same leg on New Jersey but just added some armor plate to it). Otherwise all ships had to have redesigned and rebuilt masts.
Missouri and Wisconsin had the same costs as Iowa but Wisconsin was a tad more. For the sand hole locations on Missouri, "Pop Corn" had retired but we went back down into the drydock and did a full survey of where the sand holes were and marked up a plan of them. The "private shipyard" reactivating the Iowa didn't have such luck but they knew who "Pop Corn" was and was hoping to hire him back (he wouldn't go however as his retirement was actually his THIRD retirement and was in his 80's).
Wisconsin had a few extra costs such as rebuilding the wardroom. It had a disasterous fire back in the early 60's and was therefore passed over for Viet Nam duty leaving the New Jersey as the pick. The "private shipyard" mechanics forgot a few things and when Wisconsin went out on sea trial, she left with four propellers turning but came back with only one still in operation.
Also, later on, in Philadelphia I had to deliver full sets of rudder plans to the yard because Wisconsin's rudders were a bit on the loose side as she was the only ship of the class to practice "Close the Barn Door" stops. That's turning both rudders inboard toward each other closing off that hull tunnel between shafts 2 & 3 during a full "Crash Back". In a normal Crash Back (merely reversing props) it takes a mile to stop. With a Barn Door stop she ceases forward movement in only 600 to 700 feet. Anything not tied down winds up against the forward bulkheads. But it also puts a hell of a strain on the rudder posts.
The only part of Iowa, Missouri and Wisconsin being cheaper than New Jersey is that we (and a private design agency) merely made mylar copies of our original New Jersey plans and changed the title blocks on them.
There were a few things done differently on Wisconsin than the other ships and we were writing the Shipalts and drawing the plans to incorporate them for all four ships.
As for stripping other ships for parts, the only ones I know of is what I personally commandeered. We got the aft quick release Pelican Hook for the aft towing wire off the North Carolina for the New Jersey as we inadvertently scrapped her original one when removing the fantail boat and airplane crane. Then I took two winches off the Chicago (CG-11) to provide the main lifting winches for the new boat booms on both Missouri and Wisconsin.
NAVSEA 05 stripped a lot of items off both North Carolina and Massachusetts that looked like they may be good spare parts for the Iowas and stored in a huge warehouse in Cheatham. We couldn't strip anything off the Alabama as the State owns the ship outright and anything that they didn't want they sold to scrappers or souvenir hunters.
Signed:
Richard A. Landgraff
former Structural Project Leader (design) of USS New Jersey-1968 & 1982 react.
former Structural, Hull, Compartmentation and Armor Configuration Manager of USS Missouri-1983 react.
former Configuration Manager inspector of USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin.-1983 react.
former Project Leader and designer for armor plating on Tarawa class LHA's and Spruance class DD's.
former Project Leader and designer of STEALTH installation on Perry class Frigates (also reviewed STEALTH designs on Spruance class)
Since this is a Battleship thread, I won't mention the design work I did on the Polaris, Poseidon and Trident missile test equipment, rigging systems for SEALAB II, rigging systems for DSRV tests or even my first 10 years of my 39 years total swinging a sledge hammer repairing Navy ships.
But in all cases I cannot compare to the extremely tiresome, nerve wracking and often very hazardous work of insulating ship's piping systems and asbestos removal. That is best described by RAL's Pal.Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.
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Sir, you are an amazing fountain of information. :)
I should visit Isaac Cavaliero to ask him about his role in reactivating the battleships. I haven't seen him in 2 years. Ever since his grand son turned 2.Last edited by gunnut; 02 Feb 08,, 23:27."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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Originally posted by gunnut View PostSir, you are an amazing fountain of information. :)
I should visit Isaac Cavaliero to ask him about his role in reactivating the battleships. I haven't seen him in 2 years. Ever since his grand son turned 2.
But I never knew there was an "O" at the end of his name. During the New Jersey BB days he was even my direct supervisor for a few months until he went back to supervise the scientific section.
He was one of the nicest guys I ever knew. With Isaac, you never felt he worked FOR you or you never worked FOR him. We all worked WITH each other. If the shipyard wasn't forced to close, I truly believe he would have made it on up to Assistant Chief Engineer.Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.
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