Indian Defence News & Discussions

[Oracle]

Fire damages submarine at Mumbai yard

[Oracle]

Bill moved in US senate to bring India on a par with NATO allies

All hail Trump, and Bolton, and Pompeo.

[jlvfr]

Bill moved in US senate to bring India on a par with NATO allies

All hail Trump, and Bolton, and Pompeo.

Pakistan must be loving this...

[Oracle]

Pakistan must be loving this...

I wanted to add this exact comment, but left it out. Let me add China in here.

[Double Edge]

A matter of time

Australia moots logistics support agreement with India to widen defence partnership in Indo-Pacific region | ET | Jun 12 2019

This latest Aussie administration seems very keen on closer ties. Oz was the first to offer support after Pulwama.

Indian Navy benefits from strategic logistics pacts with US, France | ET | Jun 16 2019

"Earlier, the warships in Gulf of Aden used to go to the nearby ports for replenishing their fuel and other stocks on regular intervals. But after the agreement with the US, the warships take fuel from the American Navy oil tankers deployed in that region to meet their fuel requirements," the sources said.

Sources said that the US Navy also refuels and replenishes from the Indian Navy bases for which the payments are made later, but at the moment the Indian Navy seems to be the bigger beneficiary of the pact.

Likewise, the French naval bases Djibouti and the Reunion Islands near Mauritius have also helped the Indian Navy warships operate freely and far away from its shores.

Navy says the pacts have also helped the maritime force to fulfil its mandate of being the first responder and security provider in the Indian Ocean region as per the task given to it by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

[Double Edge]

Bill moved in US senate to bring India on a par with NATO allies

All hail Trump, and Bolton, and Pompeo.

Still want those S-400's ? : D

[Oracle]

Still want those S-400's ? : D

I don't know. :D

I would go with THAAD and the Patriot systems on offer, but we need S-400 just to maintain a modicum of relationship with Russia. This is the point that Indian diplomats should make US understand, and that India would slowly move away to a Western arsenal.

Among other things, we should negotiate PA & ISI being listed as terrorist organizations just like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, for more defense purchases from America. And if a Indo-Pak war is on the cards, US would leash in the second rated powers. Since it's give and take, we should make smart choices on what to take with awesome diplomacy.

[Double Edge]

I don't know. :D

I would go with THAAD and the Patriot systems on offer, but we need S-400 just to maintain a modicum of relationship with Russia. This is the point that Indian diplomats should make US understand, and that India would slowly move away to a Western arsenal.

My thinking is this bill passes if we forego S-400 otherwise not. At the same time if we don't keep some sort of relationship with Russia we end up with a bloc comprising China, Pak, Russia & Iran against us. Russia & Iran are 50-50 sometimes with and at other times against. All very close by to India but far away from the US.

Among other things, we should negotiate PA & ISI being listed as terrorist organizations just like the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, for more defense purchases from America. And if a Indo-Pak war is on the cards, US would leash in the second rated powers. Since it's give and take, we should make smart choices on what to take with awesome diplomacy.

Each time India says it is going to buy this or that i figure its just bargaining ploys. Give us this or we go with the S-400. Works both ways. Cut oil supplies from Iran and receive armed drones. This is all speculation btw.

[Oracle]

My thinking is this bill passes if we forego S-400 otherwise not. At the same time if we don't keep some sort of relationship with Russia we end up with a bloc comprising China, Pak, Russia & Iran against us. Russia & Iran are 50-50 sometimes with and at other times against. All very close by to India but far away from the US.

Without making a bet, I'd say that the US-Indo relationship w.r.t. an aggressive China would be the defining moment of the 21st century. US doesn't need India, it got the guns and the bombs and the allies, but a strong India can very much do US' work in the Indian Ocean region, leaving the US to pursue diplomacy or war in a different theater. So, give India enough advanced technologies and training so that India can defend herself without thinking too much about it, and stare down the dragon if need arises. Business wise this makes sense as India pays hard cash. So why antagonize India?

As far as Russia goes, Indian diplomats can send out a message that she will buy oil for the same amount ($5B) to compensate the irritant in the relationship. As far as Iran goes, let us wait till the regime changes and another mullah takes over. India should get Chinese concessions when it comes to FDI. The trade deficit is huge and is not maintainable. Pak, let's just bomb them intermittently.

Each time India says it is going to buy this or that i figure its just bargaining ploys. Give us this or we go with the S-400. Works both ways. Cut oil supplies from Iran and receive armed drones. This is all speculation btw.

This policy is because India wants a sweet deal in terms of cost, while keeping her strategic autonomy. It takes ages to buy something because of this bania mentality, S-400 probably will be a casualty. Our fault. But hey, US is offering matching products, time to decide.

[Oracle]

Make in India: Govt initiates process to construct 6 stealth submarines

I was waiting for this news for so many years. Whichever company wins this contract, it will have to build another 6 if the navy is interested. This is P-75(I).

[Double Edge]

Without making a bet, I'd say that the US-Indo relationship w.r.t. an aggressive China would be the defining moment of the 21st century. US doesn't need India, it got the guns and the bombs and the allies, but a strong India can very much do US' work in the Indian Ocean region, leaving the US to pursue diplomacy or war in a different theater. So, give India enough advanced technologies and training so that India can defend herself without thinking too much about it, and stare down the dragon if need arises. Business wise this makes sense as India pays hard cash. So why antagonize India?

The open question is whether the US thinks allies & partners matter. If not then India means nothing to the US. What you said the Bush administration believed.

As far as Russia goes, Indian diplomats can send out a message that she will buy oil for the same amount ($5B) to compensate the irritant in the relationship.

We have to also persuade them that Indo-pacific does not mean anti-russia

India expands scope of Act East policy in a bid to reset ties with Russia | Live mint | Jun 19 201

As far as Iran goes, let us wait till the regime changes and another mullah takes over.

The problem with Iran is same as with Russia. Can India amount to anything more than just a customer. An important one but anything more.

India should get Chinese concessions when it comes to FDI. The trade deficit is huge and is not maintainable.

China has lots to blow. We have to ensure any investments made are not part of BRI. And the terms have to be acceptable. Two conditions they might refuse.

This policy is because India wants a sweet deal in terms of cost, while keeping her strategic autonomy. It takes ages to buy something because of this bania mentality, S-400 probably will be a casualty. Our fault. But hey, US is offering matching products, time to decide.

I've heard rationales to go for S-400 as well as ones against. Could be we're playing the americans off the Russians.

High stakes poker game between Modi, Trump & Putin

[Oracle]

India, US close to inking industrial security pact

Whoa! So many pacts to sign for defense purchases from US. It makes sense though, safeguarding billions in R&D.

[Oracle]

1 dead in INS Visakhapatnam fire; inquiry on

This is a recurring issue. Are safety protocols not followed? Is it sabotage? Isn't 1 accident enough to fix problems? Well, it's the government, they have the right to burn our tax money.

[Oracle]

The open question is whether the US thinks allies & partners matter. If not then India means nothing to the US. What you said the Bush administration believed.

Then India still buys the S-400 and waits it out till a favourable administration takes chair in America. Or maybe, we invite Trump, give him a military salute, a Tiger/Elephant sightseeing tour etc. Massage his ego.

We have to also persuade them that Indo-pacific does not mean anti-russia

India expands scope of Act East policy in a bid to reset ties with Russia | Live mint | Jun 19 201

Putin knows India's stringent FP, which is independent of all powers. India just have to remind Russia from time to time.

The problem with Iran is same as with Russia. Can India amount to anything more than just a customer. An important one but anything more.

Let the Iranians deal with the Americans first. We'll deal with whichever Iranian is alive.

China has lots to blow. We have to ensure any investments made are not part of BRI. And the terms have to be acceptable. Two conditions they might refuse.

What did you read, that makes you think India will accept Chinese debt-trap? Look, for India, BRI is not about debt-trap diplomacy (we have enough institutions that reg-flags project in the survey phase itself, Sri Lanka/Nepal/other-countries didn't or corruption ruled), nor is it about infrastructure development. India opposes BRI since she is fundamentally opposed to the Chinese getting traction in our neighbourhood. That's all. We let the SLankans slip into debt, as India wanted to make an example out of Sri Lanka. Nepal is next. We don't have to shout now, the independent press is doing that, giving China and BRI a bad reputation. And then there are the Americans who are also fundamentally opposed to the Chinese taking away their pivotal role in world affairs. China is heading for a fight which she is going to lose, with a lot of money down the drain.

As about FD investments, we are a huge country. If India remove obstacles related to labour laws and land acquisition, there will be a global rush of companies to invest in India. Look at this way, a closed India still attracts some of the best MNCs, ain't it? You see that when you move around in Bangalore, right?

I've heard rationales to go for S-400 as well as ones against. Could be we're playing the americans off the Russians.

High stakes poker game between Modi, Trump & Putin

Could be. The American pressure is getting tougher now.

US reiterates reservations about India’s S-400 deal

[Double Edge]

Why do we need the S-400 ? it seems to fill in the gap of missing air squadrons

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/66066460.cms

The US administration is required under a domestic law, Countering America's Adversaries through Sanctions Act or CAATSA to impose sanctions on any country that has “significant transactions” with Iran, North Korea or Russia.

The Act primarily deals with sanctions on Russian interests such as its oil and gas industry, defence and security sector, and financial institutions, in the backdrop of its military intervention in Ukraine and its alleged meddling in the 2016 US Presidential elections.

First time i see CAATSA applies to oil & gas. Are we supposed to give up our Sakhalin concessions next ? not happening.

Let's take a look at the recent house resolution passed against Turkey. Because similar will apply to us sans the F35 bits

Whereas Turkey announced an agreement to acquire the S–400 air and missile defense system from Russia in July 2017 and has publicly stated it could take delivery as early as July 2019;

Whereas the United States Government has developed an attractive alternative offer to provide Turkey with a strong, capable, NATO-interoperable air and missile defense system that meets Turkey’s defense requirements;

The next bit isn't relevant to us

Whereas Turkey’s planned acquisition of the Russian-made S–400 undermines the security of the United States and NATO allies, weakens the United States-Turkey relationship, and is incompatible with Turkey’s plan to operate the F–35 Joint Strike Fighter and participate in F–35 production;

So let's look at the underlined bit, what is this attractive alternative referred to

(1) fully supports the United States Government’s January 2019 offer to sell the Patriot air and missile defense systems to Turkey, with the condition that Turkey not acquire the S–400 air and missile defense system from Russia;

(4) declares that Turkish acquisition of the Russian S–400 air and missile defense system would constitute a significant transaction within the meaning of section 231 of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act of 2017 (22 U.S.C. 9525);

(5) calls for full implementation of sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act of 2017 if Turkey acquires the Russian S–400 air and missile defense system; and

(6) calls on the Government of Turkey to cancel the acquisition of the Russian S–400 air and missile defense system.

They are offering Patriot and saying it is an attractive alternative offer. Patriot has been rubbished by some people in youtube comments. It is not an alternative. It isn't even in the same league as the S400. For example..I was suprised at the push back Nalapat got in the comments in this video.

(1) Neither the Americans nor the Russians are angels; heck, they aren't even good guys. However, between the two, at least the Russians don't invest so much money and time in pretending to give two fucks about India. You guys have a perception problem here; the place where you live has an extremely sophisticated system that's been in place for decades whose sole purpose is to demonize Russia (and of late, China as well).

(2) India is buying the S-400 because it fits certain specific niche shortcomings of our national security needs. I refer you to YOUR OWN conversation with Abhijit on this issue. I made this argument before and I'll make it again: India would have gladly purchased such a system from the US, IF THEY HAD SUCH A SYSTEM. That the Patriot and the THAAD are both flops is no one's fault but their own. Now, India might change its stance if the US were to offer AEGIS. But the US won't offer that. Why? Tell Dr. Nalapat to ask his 'good buddies', and brace yourselves for the sweet lies and misdirections that will invariably ensue.

(3) Dr. Nalapat said something like: "The US wants a strong defense relationship with India". The US has only ever wanted one type of relationship with India, in particular with highly skilled Indians. What relationship is that? Go to any of the gated communities in your local area and look at the undocumented Mexicans working the yards, cleaning the houses etc. Unlike with us Indians, the Americans are at least honest with the Mexicans about what kind of 'relationship' they want to have with them.

(4) Stop reading CNN, WaPo, MSNBC, Fox, or anything in this category. THEY ARE ALL LYING. Read news from foreign news outlets or watch their videos on YouTube. My point is: everyone lies in a manner that suits them, so you read all the lies from all the different perspectives, and try to extrapolate the truth as something that lies in between all the lies

The patriot has seen active service since the 1st Gulf War and has been upgraded since then. In this 30 year period there's evidence that its interception rate of incoming missiles isn't just bad, its atrocious (~10% at best during the 90s, up to the much publicized miss which resulted in a rebel Scud-like rocket landing on the runway of a Saudi airport 1-2 yrs back - there's video of this on YouTube).

Second, the patriot is not really designed to defend, its a shameless attempt by Raytheon to generate profit. A patriot battery offers protection only in a 60 degree solid arc. Compare this with the full 360 degree hemisphere coverage by the S-400. The cold-launch technology that the Russians implemented is not magic or even cutting edge, so why hasn't Raytheon implemented it yet? Greed, what else. Even in its latest upgraded version, none of the American defense blogs (which are all strongly pro-American btw) defend the patriot's capabilities vs. the S-400.

Commenter does not mention which american defense blogs. And that channel has an annoying policy where any comment with a link does not appear.

THAAD hasn't seen action yet (that the US admits to) but its testing history is laughable - ~55% accuracy against 50 yr old SCUD like targets, under ideal conditions. Now, if India were to consider buying such a system, it would be to provide defense against Chinese IRBMs. These are much more sophisticated than SCUDs, so you can connect the dots as to why its a flop as far as India's needs are concerned.

Turkey condemns “nonbinding” US Congress resolution | Hurriyet | Jun 11 2019

Ankara said that it was Washington’s initial refusal to sell the Patriot missile system that led it to seek other offers, adding that Russia offered a better deal that included technology transfers.

Now this is interesting. Did the US refuse the sale or tech transfers. I can't see the US refusing patriot by itself to a NATO ally. I mean if they're ok with giving F35 there can be no grounds to refuse patriot.

However the Russians are also offering tech transfer and here the Americans might have baulked. The same applies to India.