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  • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I agree. The more I think about it, the more I see no Indian need for a SSN. The only scenario for any SSN is to kill SSBNs before they can launch their birds. No way in hell are Indian SSNs going to get close enough to American and Russian SSBNs to do that. Indian SSNs would need to punch through Chinese screens of destroyers/SSN/SSKs to get through to Chinese SSBNs. Even then, AIP SSKs would also have the same capability provided they top up before they submerge for action.

    Hell, for the price of one BARRACUDA SSN, you can buy and crew a GOTLAND SSK for its entire life cycle. The GOTLAND sounds like a much better buy more and more.
    Gotland has engines so quiet even the Americans back in 2005 couldn't detect until it was too late for a US aircraft carrier : )

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...gan-war-games/

    Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Aug 19,, 23:14.

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    • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
      Just a bit of a caveat. Doctrines are guidelines. They're not written in stone.
      It's done now. The defense minister has said if the circumstances change then NFU will be called into question. Henceforth there is a certain degree of ambiguity he thinks the Paks can't use to get a handle on to make a bluff like in the past.

      Is an ambiguous NFU policy possible with Pakistan while retaining it with China ?

      If not then we are looking at an arms buildup otherwise definitely a fissile materials build up.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Aug 19,, 23:15.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
        It's done now. The defense minister has said if the circumstances change then NFU will be called into question. Henceforth there is a certain degree of ambiguity he thinks the Paks can't use to get a handle on to make a bluff like in the past.

        Is an ambiguous NFU policy possible with Pakistan while retaining it with China ?

        If not then we are looking at an arms buildup otherwise definitely a fissile materials build up.
        I never counted on NFU. Not with the Soviets. Not China. Not India. I greatly admire the Deterrence is Not Warfighting conept but I would and should be fired if I don't consider India or China to fire the first nuclear shot and therefore, both Indian and Chinese nuclear weapons assets should be primary targets in any strike package.

        However, within context, is there any chance that a Pakistani Army would march down the streets of Dehli? Then what critieria for first use is there for India if not national survival? Field Cols do not want to go begging the Dehli for nuclear weapons release. If Indian Staff HQs did their jobs right, then they don't need nukes ... and frankly don't want nukes. Battlefield dynamics are hard enough without adding nukes into the equation.

        About the only thing that would invite Indian nukes is that somehow, an Indian Army (as in 3 Corps) is surrounded deep into Pakistan and is on the verge of being destroyed by the Pakistani Army but that scenario is damned far fetch and you can bet the Big 5 will busy screaming at Pakistan to not do it and be satisfy with a propaganda victory.
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
          I never counted on NFU. Not with the Soviets. Not China. Not India. I greatly admire the Deterrence is Not Warfighting conept but I would and should be fired if I don't consider India or China to fire the first nuclear shot and therefore, both Indian and Chinese nuclear weapons assets should be primary targets in any strike package.
          If they intended to pre-empt an attack.

          What i found people question more is the "massive retaliation" bit. In response to a nuke attack.

          However, within context, is there any chance that a Pakistani Army would march down the streets of Dehli? Then what critieria for first use is there for India if not national survival? Field Cols do not want to go begging the Dehli for nuclear weapons release. If Indian Staff HQs did their jobs right, then they don't need nukes ... and frankly don't want nukes. Battlefield dynamics are hard enough without adding nukes into the equation.
          The argument to question NFU with the Paks isn't about them marching to Delhi. It's if there is credible intel they are getting ready or will use then its to take them out pre-emptively. Why wait for them to attack you and only then respond. Because they don't have a NFU to begin with.

          I have a paper to get through before i can say more. I think Oracle shared it with you as well.

          About the only thing that would invite Indian nukes is that somehow, an Indian Army (as in 3 Corps) is surrounded deep into Pakistan and is on the verge of being destroyed by the Pakistani Army but that scenario is damned far fetch and you can bet the Big 5 will busy screaming at Pakistan to not do it and be satisfy with a propaganda victory.
          Yes

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          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            The argument to question NFU with the Paks isn't about them marching to Delhi. It's if there is credible intel they are getting ready or will use then its to take them out pre-emptively. Why wait for them to attack you and only then respond. Because they don't have a NFU to begin with.
            Neither India nor Pakistan can destroy the other's nuclear retalitotry response. Anyone who believes so don't know the first thing about nuke wars. There's only two powers that can do that to India AND Pakistan and they're not in the Asian sub-continent. Even then, both Russia and the US will have to dig deep into their nuke reserves to accomplish this.
            Chimo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
              Really weird one to figure out ? Why is a US senator offering ways to bypass their own sanctions in this manner.

              [ATTACH]47862[/ATTACH]

              Why isn't Pompeo, the one with the winning smile doing this ?

              Graham: I Told Turkey They Can Avoid Sanctions If They Donít Activate Russian Radar | Defense One | Jul 25 2019
              Lindsay Graham is the current Charlie Wilson for Pakistan.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                Swedish GOTLAND AIP SSK - $100mil US
                Frendch BARACUDA SSN - $1.4bil US

                For the price of 1 French SSN, you can get 14 Swedish SSK. There are of course vast difference in technology and capabilities but can you really match 1 SSN against 14 SSKs?
                The thinking that goes into Indian defense procurement is probably to buy weapons that are better than what the Chinese have, even if less in quantity. This decisions are always political. Plus, the French seems to have outbidded Russia as India's strategic partner. Just my PoV. I think you're correct on the Swedish SSKs (never knew about this, never thought boomers could be that cheap), but I think the French have offered us this, not necessarily responding to an Indian RFI.

                Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                Afaik, the 1500 ton Gotlands can sail for close to 14 days on the AIP, and that's with a first generation system. Unless India wants to send boats into the Pacific, that should be enough. I imagine the version proposed for the 4000 ton "Shortfin Barracuda" offered to Australia (which doesn't want nukes, note) will be better.
                Canada. Colonel. Scotch. Steal.
                Last edited by Oracle; 25 Aug 19,, 06:12.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  Canada. Colonel. Scotch. Steal.
                  ... a little context, please?...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                    Canada. Colonel. Scotch. Steal.
                    ... a little context, please?...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                      ... a little context, please?...
                      Oracle wants lead a raid on the Colonels scotch stash : D
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Aug 19,, 15:17.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Neither India nor Pakistan can destroy the other's nuclear retalitotry response. Anyone who believes so don't know the first thing about nuke wars. There's only two powers that can do that to India AND Pakistan and they're not in the Asian sub-continent. Even then, both Russia and the US will have to dig deep into their nuke reserves to accomplish this.
                        Very good, then as i was suspecting its just a rhetorical counter to Imran or the PA threatening us with nukes.

                        We say don't count on NFU.

                        In other words we have not changed our doctrine.

                        For reasons you mentioned in a thread on the subject in 2014

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Oracle wants lead a raid on the Colonels scotch stash : D
                          There's more to it. Wait for jlvfr to request me once more. :D
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Very good, then as i was suspecting its just a rhetorical counter to Imran or the PA threatening us with nukes.

                            We say don't count on NFU.

                            In other words we have not changed our doctrine.
                            Yes, rhetorical. Many do want the Indian NFU to change though.

                            For reasons you mentioned in a thread on the subject in 2014
                            Link? Thread?

                            The Colonel also says the Chinese never believed Indian NFU, as India never believed Chinese NFU.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                              There's more to it. Wait for jlvfr to request me once more. :D
                              All your info are belong to me?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                                The thinking that goes into Indian defense procurement is probably to buy weapons that are better than what the Chinese have, even if less in quantity. This decisions are always political. Plus, the French seems to have outbidded Russia as India's strategic partner. Just my PoV. I think you're correct on the Swedish SSKs (never knew about this, never thought boomers could be that cheap), but I think the French have offered us this, not necessarily responding to an Indian RFI.
                                The point here is to educate you that there are better ways to spend defence dollars.

                                Case in point. Which is better? An Indian aircraft carrier with MiG-29s or 5 squadrons of SU-27s with ariel refuelling?
                                Chimo

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