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  • #91
    Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
    Looks like a proper frigate, tbh. But the 57mm does look small... would have thought a 76mm would be much better, preferably the Super Rapido version.
    The USN has already divested itself out of the 76mm, as is the USCG is in the process. I believe they want to streamline the supply chain with 57mm and 5” rounds.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by surfgun View Post
      The USN has already divested itself out of the 76mm, as is the USCG is in the process. I believe they want to streamline the supply chain with 57mm and 5 rounds.
      So... stuck with it, then. 5" is a big too much for a frigate, I think?

      Edit: anywhere we can see the specs (size, weapons, etc) for this ship?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
        A range of 20,000 nmi... Holy Smokes! That's a ton of fuel!
        At what speed? ...is an important consideration.

        Fuel consumption with respect to time is coarsely proportional to the cube of speed, and with respect to distance is coarsely proportional to the square of speed. ...in still air, still water, etc., so ignoring other variables.

        So halving speed quadruples range.

        With the Japanese cutter, doubling speed at which that range was measured would reduce that range from 20k_nmi to 5k_nmi.

        Comparing range without the associated speed(s) can be misleading.
        Last edited by JRT; 21 Jan 20,, 20:49.
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        • #94
          Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
          So... stuck with it, then. 5" is a big too much for a frigate, I think?
          A 5-inch gun could add a lot of useful capability, more especially with newer ammunitions.

          USNI News reported that in the Summer of 2018, USN succesfully tested 20 of BAE Systems' hyper velocity projectiles (HVP) from a standard 5 inch / 62 caliber Mark 45 Mod 4 gun on USS Dewey (DDG-105), an Arleigh Burke class flight IIA destroyer. BAE also has a recently designed modular automated ammunition handling system for use with the Mark 45 Mod 4.

          In 2016 Raytheon successfully demonstrated their Excalibur N5, a 5_inch naval gun variant of their Excalibur line.

          https://news.usni.org/2019/01/08/nav...royers-deckgun






          Last edited by JRT; 21 Jan 20,, 23:05.
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          • #95
            Ammunition for use in USN's Mark 110 57mm gun utilized in LCS and other platforms.

            First video below shows BAE Bofors FUZE 3P programmable ammunition, and second video below shows BAE's newer ORKA ammunition.

            The third and fourth videos below are about L3 Mustang's ALaMO ammunition.

            LCS is using BAE's FUZE 3P, and L3 Mustang's ALaMO, but not as of yet BAE's ORKA. I would expect FFG(x) to follow suit if the finalized design uses the same 57mm gun as is used on LCS.







            Last edited by JRT; 22 Jan 20,, 06:25.
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            • #96
              The graphic below was excerpted from the CRS report (R44972) "Navy Frigate (FFG(X)) Program, Background and Issues for Congress", dated 20 December 2019.

              Click image for larger version

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              In that CRS report the stated source of the graphic was: "Presentation by Dr. Reagan Campbell, “FFG(X) Update, National Symposium—Surface Navy Association,” January 15, 2019, briefing slide 3, posted at InsideDefense.com (subscription required), January 22, 2019."
              Last edited by JRT; 22 Jan 20,, 06:06.
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              • #97
                Carlo Bergamini class destroyers (Italian FREMM), two variants, GP & ASW

                I thought the following graphics might be interesting to some here. Note that the GP variant has a 5 inch gun.

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                Last edited by JRT; 22 Jan 20,, 18:50.
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                • #98
                  Originally posted by JRT View Post
                  Note that the GP variant has a 5 inch gun.
                  Except it's a Vulcano, meaning the default ammunition is actually subcaliber 92mm (edit: 3.62-inch) projectiles fired to 70+ km range.

                  Originally posted by JRT View Post
                  At what speed? ...is an important consideration.
                  For the Shikishima class that's at 18 knots (higher than what's given for the range envelope for most other ships), which makes it a rather considerable amount of fuel. Top speed is 25 knots.
                  They're planning to commission a third ship of the class next month btw, the previous two were commissioned in 1992 and 2013.
                  Last edited by kato; 23 Jan 20,, 22:28.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by kato View Post
                    For the Shikishima class that's at 18 knots (higher than what's given for the range envelope for most other ships), which makes it a rather considerable amount of fuel. Top speed is 25 knots.

                    Originally posted by kato View Post
                    They're now being used somewhat similarly to what Absalon and F125 classes in Europe are used for in maneuvers, i.e. as command ships for naval taskforces composed of small patrol units. The Japanese do such maneuvers e.g. with Indonesia and iirc the Philippines.
                    With that large capacity for fuel oil, perhaps the ship also serves as oiler for the group.
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                    • Originally posted by JRT View Post
                      With that large capacity for fuel oil, perhaps the ship also serves as oiler for the group.
                      The original purpose when the first one was built around 1989 was to escort nuclear fuel transports between Europe and Japan - that's where the range comes from, Shikishima was intended to do so without any refueling stops. The ships have no RAS equipment of any kind. Shikishima performed that mission exactly once, in 1992 before being relegated to general duties.

                      The coastguard 25 years later finally managed to get the funding for additional ships by pointing at their possible overseas patrol use - without refueling - against pirates in the Straits of Malacca (for the second ship ordered in 2009) and the Senkaku Islands dispute (for another three ordered in 2016/17). The joint patrol missions in the Philippines and Indonesia - and ranging further out, e.g. with India since the 90s - are done with both the two Shikishimas and older PLH type patrol ships that are similar to USCG WHECs.

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                      • Follow-on to the subtopic of a 5-inch gun adding some useful capability, more especially with newer ammunitions.

                        Functionality described below could be included in an upgraded Excalibur N5 navalized variant.

                        While this could bolster distributed NSFS, a 5-inch gun does not seem to be a desired requirement in this, not even as a reserved space claim for future addition, perhaps because it might knock some out of consideration.

                        Raytheon’s advanced Excalibur weapon hits moving targets in test

                        By: Jen Judson
                        05 February 2020
                        DefenseNews TechWatch

                        WASHINGTON — A new version of Raytheon’s Excalibur precision-guided munition demonstrated in a U.S. Navy test at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona, that it can change course to hit moving targets.

                        The Excalibur S proved it can “survive the shock and stress” of being fired from a Howitzer, then transition from a GPS-guided capability to laser guidance and hit a moving target, a Feb. 5 company statement said.

                        The "S" version has GPS and a semi-active laser seeker to get after mobile land and maritime targets in GPS-contested environments without a loss in range capability.

                        The Army and the Navy both use Excalibur Increment B projectiles, which can be upgraded with the S capabilities, the company said.

                        “Using artillery to engage moving targets gives soldiers more flexibility,” Sam Deneke, Raytheon’s land warfare systems vice president, said in the statement. “Artillery is typically used to hit stationary objects, but Excalibur S expands the capability of artillery on the battlefield.”

                        Excalibur is a known to be a precise weapon, typically hitting less than 2 meters from the target, according to Raytheon.

                        Excalibur has been fired more than 1,400 times in combat. The Army shot a round from the gun tube of a prototype of the service’s Extended-Range Cannon Artillery system and hit a target at 62 kilometers. The service is developing the ERCA system as part of its Long-Range Precision Fires modernization program, which is the Army’s top priority within its modernization portfolio.

                        The prototypes consist of a Paladin howitzer with an M109A7 chassis that upgrades the Paladin Integrated Management’s turret with a 58-caliber, 30-foot-long gun tube capable of shooting farther than 70 kilometers.

                        The Army is also aiming to compete for Cannon-Delivered Area Effects Munitions this fiscal year, which would upgrade the Excalibur airframe with an armored target seeker and will be able to defeat “moving and imprecisely located armored targets at long ranges” and will be fully compatible with the Army’s howitzers as well as ERCA and the M777 Extended-Range version, according to fiscal 2020 budget documents.
                        Last edited by JRT; 07 Feb 20,, 02:43.
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                        • So here's an inroad to get 4 more FFG(X) and 4 less LCS.
                          https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...-us-navy-says/

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                          • Originally posted by thebard View Post
                            So here's an inroad to get 4 more FFG(X) and 4 less LCS.
                            https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...-us-navy-says/
                            Regardless anything that might be saved by decommissioning the first four LCS, the end number of new FFGs will be determined near the end of the FFG buys, not near the front, and they haven't yet bought any.
                            Last edited by JRT; 18 Feb 20,, 03:28.
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                            • Originally posted by thebard View Post
                              So here's an inroad to get 4 more FFG(X) and 4 less LCS.
                              https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...-us-navy-says/
                              Good. At this point, the USN would get more use out of a revamped Perry than from an LCS, tbh...

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                              • Excerpt from the CRS report 'Navy Frigate (FFG[X]) Program: Background and Issues for Congress Updated December 20, 2019'

                                At the end of FY2018, the Navy’s force of SSCs totaled 27 battle force ships, including 0 frigates,
                                16 LCSs, and 11 mine warfare ships. Under the Navy’s FY2020 30-year (FY2020-FY2049)
                                shipbuilding plan, the SSC force is to grow to 52 ships (34 LCSs and 18 FFG[X]s) in FY2034,
                                reach a peak of 62 ships (30 LCSs, 20 FFG[X]s, and 12 SSCs of a future design) in FY2040, and
                                then decline to 50 ships (20 FFG[X]s and 30 SSCs of a future design) in FY2049.

                                So I guess it's a moving target right now. The inital plan was for 20 FFG[x] to supplement a force of 32 LCS. With 4 fewer LCS, somebody has to fill that gap.

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