RAN's Collins class replacement

[jlvfr]

No, its a rather convoluted and shady process going back years. If you want to get into the weeds of the deal listen to this lecture by Sub Brief

Fleecing the Future Submarine Program - YouTube

How a cabal of Politicians, Lobbyist, and a Sub Officer fleeced Australia out of Billions.

Ah ok. I knew it took years, but I didn't know of the change of government (and party, I assume...).

[Albany Rifles]

No, its a rather convoluted and shady process going back years. If you want to get into the weeds of the deal listen to this lecture by Sub Brief

Fleecing the Future Submarine Program - YouTube

How a cabal of Politicians, Lobbyist, and a Sub Officer fleeced Australia out of Billions.

The same thing occurred in Canada when there was a change in government. I think it hit the F-35 sales(?) Can't remember off hand.

And totally concur with the opinions on Sub Brief & Drachnifel's.

[zraver]

The same thing occurred in Canada when there was a change in government. I think it hit the F-35 sales(?) Can't remember off hand.

And totally concur with the opinions on Sub Brief & Drachnifel's.

Without derailing..... Sub Brief, Drachnifel, Hard Core History, Mike Duncan, Greg's Airplanes, WoW Admiral Chats, Naval War College, Army War College..... So many audio resources out there today. I routinely listen to lectures while driving truck when I have a lot of window time. I support Drach on Patreon and Aaron (sub brief) on Twitch.

[Double Edge]

Australia must work to salvage relations with France | ASPI | Sept 20 2021

The challenge for Canberra won’t be about resolving a clash of fundamental interests with France, but about rebuilding the means to influence and cooperate with Paris.

Australia needs some quick wins here, especially with ongoing EU free-trade negotiations and the Glasgow climate talks around the corner.

First, Canberra should negotiate generously and in good faith on the compensation to Naval Group. This will demonstrate respect and help the French save some face.

Second, Australia should lean on history to remind the French that the relationship is bigger and more profound than a procurement disagreement. Canberra could offer to make a significant investment in maintaining Commonwealth war graves in France and upgrading the remembrance infrastructure, using French labour.

And third, some strategic concessions could be made to French producers in FTA negotiations, though Australia should be careful linking trade and defence.

Gestures alone, however, will not be enough.

There’s no shortage of smaller defence procurements Australia could source from French providers. More substantially, Canberra should present concrete proposals for French troop rotations in Australia and potentially even a basing arrangement for French ships.

Australia should also be working intensely with its AUKUS and Quad partners on a formal security offering. Intelligence-sharing might be a good start.

December’s New Caledonia independence referendum, though, presents Australia’s greatest opportunity.

Any degree of New Caledonian independence carries risk for Australia and France. Neither country would say it openly, but the stabilising effect of the French political and military presence is the surest guard against a pro-China independent government emerging in New Caledonia.

Australia can be France’s most valuable external partner in New Caledonia, working closely together to shape what a more autonomous New Caledonia might look like. Australia also enjoys far stronger relations with New Zealand and Melanesia, especially Vanuatu, meaning it can coordinate regional influence over New Caledonia’s future much better than France can.

If New Caledonians do opt for independence, then Australia will be a powerful moderating voice against any rash moves as Noumea discovers its own foreign policy. Australia can also help maintain a French military presence in the region should France have to withdraw to any extent from New Caledonia.

The submarine decision has set Franco-Australian relations back at least a decade. But compelling reasons of strategic convergence mean Australia should be optimistic that it can rebuild influence with France.

[Albany Rifles]

Without derailing..... Sub Brief, Drachnifel, Hard Core History, Mike Duncan, Greg's Airplanes, WoW Admiral Chats, Naval War College, Army War College..... So many audio resources out there today. I routinely listen to lectures while driving truck when I have a lot of window time. I support Drach on Patreon and Aaron (sub brief) on Twitch.

Other podcasts you may like are The Spear from the Modern War Institute at West Point, Homebrew History from a couple of historians at Franklin Battlefield, War Stories, The Tattooed Historian. Several also have YouTube sites.

Back to submarines...

[zraver]

UK announces the new SSN(R) that is a serious contender for the Aussies.

U.K. Plans to Build 8 SSNR Submarines - YouTube

[jlvfr]

A thought occurs: are there contract cancelation penalties?

[JRT]

A thought occurs: are there contract cancelation penalties?

The cancellation fee is reportedly $404 million Australian Dollars.

[Albany Rifles]

The cancellation fee is reportedly $404 million Australian Dollars.

Yeah, that is pretty normal. But amortized over the length of the system cost it is easily manageable.

[Double Edge]

No, its a rather convoluted and shady process going back years. If you want to get into the weeds of the deal listen to this lecture by Sub Brief

Fleecing the Future Submarine Program - YouTube

How a cabal of Politicians, Lobbyist, and a Sub Officer fleeced Australia out of Billions.

How much has Australia paid up to date ? All i know is they owed $6bn for the French diesel redesign

The reason it was convoluted is they've had a string of coalition govts. I'm not seeing anything shady here as yet.

These govts were weak and vulnerable to the whims of influential partners. If they don't get their pound of flesh they withdraw support and the govt falls.

When a govt has to run a country and watch over its back defense is going to take a back seat. They were not strong govts with a majority.

They also had a few PM ousters in the last decade. Wobbly.

If i want to be generous they managed to keep the sub thing alive in whatever form, bad as it looked because they knew starting with Rudd in 2010 that by 2025 those Collins class subs were not going to be useful.

I find it interesting that people complain that during the Rudd & Gillard years no defense deals were signed. Meaning valuable time was lost. Advantage CCP.

I wonder why that is because we had a similar spell like that in India.

[Firestorm]

Always wondered what black magic was supposed to go into the Shortfin Barracuda that made it so damned expensive and also led to the French promising the Aussies that they wouldn't sell the same subs to anyone else. Looks like the Aussies weren't satisfied with whatever it was.

But does this new nuclear sub deal set a precedent now? The Russians and French can theoretically use this as justification to sell the Yasen or the Barracuda (nuclear) to any customer with deep enough pockets. Or the Chinese to sell their Shang class subs for that matter.

[zraver]

Russia already sells nuke boats. No one who can afford cutting edge wants Chinese boats. The DE market has a lot of solid designs from Germany, Sweden, Japan and France's corruption foibles with Pakistan and it's gouging of Australia price them out of the market.

[Firestorm]

Russia already sells nuke boats. No one who can afford cutting edge wants Chinese boats.

Who have the Russians openly sold nuke boats to?

[Officer of Engineers]

Who have the Russians openly sold nuke boats to?

The only thing I can find is a 10 year lease to India of an AKULA class

https://www.nti.org/analysis/article...-capabilities/

But this is a SSN which sales are forbidden under the NPT. Loophole, nothing about leasing which technically the Russians retain ownership. Frankly, I don't know how Oz are going to get away from this one. There is not one torpedo in existence that we can't put a nuke on.

[Firestorm]

The only thing I can find is a 10 year lease to India of an AKULA class

https://www.nti.org/analysis/article...-capabilities/

But this is a SSN which sales are forbidden under the NPT. Loophole, nothing about leasing which technically the Russians retain ownership. Frankly, I don't know how Oz are going to get away from this one. There is not one torpedo in existence that we can't put a nuke on.

Yes that was only a lease. There was also a Charlie class SSN leased back in 1987 for 3 years. But both went back to Russia after the lease period was over.