RAN's Collins class replacement

[Officer of Engineers]

Dude!!! Too soon!!!!!

And, Pete, don't ever change!

To understand the attitude of the Brits towards Australia all you need to do is watch the awesome miniseries Gallipoli on Prime. The arrogance of the British generals towards the Australian civil administration, let alone their officers, was well portrayed. That the Australians rapidly pulled their forces out of North Africa after Pearl Harbor clearly demonstrated that after WW 1 Australia would go its own way.

Nah, he's still pissed England won over Australia the last 7 times they met in Rugby.

As for the topic, given the state of Chinese ASW, the Australians could use guppies and they still will sink any Chinese task force stupid enough to sail south.

I personally do not think SSNs are a good buy for smaller powers like Australia and Canada. It's a long term cost that goes beyond the life of the subs. Decomissioning these beasts are going to cost as much as a refit

[Bigfella]

Nah, he's still pissed England won over Australia the last 7 times they met in Rugby.

Hate to break it to you Sir, but you are making the same mistake Kiwis make by assuming all Australians follow Rugby. I am from Melbourne. While we do have Rugby teams here, few of us follow the game. I couldn't tell you who is the Australian coach or anyone in the team. All my focus at the moment is on the Australian Rules (AFL) Grand Final tonight between the Demons and the Doggies. Its been 57 years since the once mighty Dees won a flag, so I'll be going for them.

Now, if the Poms beat us in the Ashes this year you might hear the wails of despair clear across the Pacific.

[zraver]

Sure, and Indians are just Pakistanis with a sillier religion.

FMD, how do adults come up with stuff like this.

If Australia ends up in a fight with China New Zealand MIGHT help us depending on circumstances. They might send one of their two combat vessels, or maybe both of them if they are on a really good mood! That is basically it.

As stated, Britain won't do much more than use harsh language unless they see some vital interest involved. They were perfectly happy to screw us the one time we were actually threatened with invasion and just as happy to ditch us several decades later when they decided having significant military resources in the Indian ocean made no sense. Sentiment will get us nothing and we know it.

They let you send troops to Singapore to stop the Japanese.....

Too soon?

Aussies are arguably the best combat troops of WWII. The Anzac's were key in North Africa and Churchill knew it. When Japan finally convinced him to let's the Anzac troops leave North Africa Tobruck the Japanese never win another ground offensive against western troops.

[zraver]

In a Sino- Western War the RAN is less useful surging north than it is keeping China from surging South. India to the West, Japan to the Northeast, Australia to the South and the US to the East limit Chinese operations to just a few seas south of Formosa and East of Manila. Boxed in almost as tightly as the HSF in 1915.

[Firestorm]

In a Sino- Western War the RAN is less useful surging north than it is keeping China from surging South. India to the West, Japan to the Northeast, Australia to the South and the US to the East limit Chinese operations to just a few seas south of Formosa and East of Manila. Boxed in almost as tightly as the HSF in 1915.

That is assuming all those countries are involved in such a conflict at the same time instead of only one or two. Depends on where and why the conflict starts in the first place. If it starts over the Senkaku Islands, only Japan and possibly the US would be involved. If the Chinese get into it with Taiwan, again only the US might get involved. In a conflict with India, the US interest would mostly be in keeping the maritime trade flowing and silently spying on Chinese subs. The Philippines would be alone too and wouldn't last long in a conflict with China. Australia would be involved only if the Chinese cause trouble for them directly for some reason I don't fathom at the moment.

[Bigfella]

They let you send troops to Singapore to stop the Japanese.....

Too soon?

Not for me, but my late uncle might not have seen the joke. He was one of them. Unfortunately his battalion got shredded in Malaya (he led a group through Japanese lines with his trusty bren gun) and were still rebuilding when Singapore fell. He never forgave the Generals for that.

The bit that does leave a bad taste in the mouth was Churchill diverting Australia troops returning from Nth Africa to Burma without the permission of the Australian government. That was one of those historical hinge points and fortunately our PM at the time wasn't the obsequious anglophile Menzies, but the former pacifist Curtin. He had no hesitation in reaching out to Roosevelt to lean on Churchill. It worked, and was a cornerstone of the emerging alliance between our nations.

Aussies are arguably the best combat troops of WWII. The Anzac's were key in North Africa and Churchill knew it. When Japan finally convinced him to let's the Anzac troops leave North Africa Tobruck the Japanese never win another ground offensive against western troops.

Not sure about 'best', but we are certainly in the conversation when it comes to light infantry. That said, people often overlook some of our less impressive moments against the Japanese early on. We were definitely outmatched early by some experienced, confident & well supported troops. Fortunately we improved.

[Bigfella]

As for this whole sentiment...once Great Britain gave up Hong Kong most of their reasons for having a casus belli vis-a-vis PRC went away.

And their ability to project power in any meaningful way into the region was lost several decades before Hong Kong was.

[Bigfella]

That is assuming all those countries are involved in such a conflict at the same time instead of only one or two. Depends on where and why the conflict starts in the first place. If it starts over the Senkaku Islands, only Japan and possibly the US would be involved. If the Chinese get into it with Taiwan, again only the US might get involved. In a conflict with India, the US interest would mostly be in keeping the maritime trade flowing and silently spying on Chinese subs. The Philippines would be alone too and wouldn't last long in a conflict with China. Australia would be involved only if the Chinese cause trouble for them directly for some reason I don't fathom at the moment.

Even in the scenarios you outline there will be a need to have forces positioned to box China in and act as a threat to Chinese positions in the Sth China sea. At a minimum that compels them to assign forces to cover the threat. Australian forces could certainly be involved if China tries a breakout between the Philippines & Taiwan, but our primary mission will be elsewhere. Expect a LOT more co-operation between Indian & Australian naval forces over the next decade as well as with Singapore, Malaysia & Indonesia.

[Monash]

They let you send troops to Singapore to stop the Japanese.....

Too soon?

Aussies are arguably the best combat troops of WWII. The Anzac's were key in North Africa and Churchill knew it. When Japan finally convinced him to let's the Anzac troops leave North Africa Tobruck the Japanese never win another ground offensive against western troops.

Actually Z Japan didn't convince the British at all. Even after the fall of Singapore Churchill was adamant that the 3 Australian Divisions then in service in North Africa has to stay in situ because he regarded that front as the priority. Despite desperate pleas from our then P.M. Curtin he initially refused to countenance the recall of two Divisions to serve on the Pacific front. In fact while one was on the way he tried to get it diverted to Burma. The relationship with Churchill was so bad I recall one story (and it may be apocryphal) that at one point Australian authorities 'hinted' to the British that if permission wasn't granted for the transfer 'unofficial' orders might be leaked to the Aussie Divisions telling their commanders to simply 'stand in place' and not contribute in any way to further offensive actions!

I'll have to check my history. I could be wrong.

[Double Edge]

The truce between Aussie govt and opposition lasted just a week until the opposition started coming up with FUD. Very familiar it sounds too !!

When it comes to national security there CANNOT BE TWO OPINIONS about it in ANY party.

Already gearing up for next years elections ? it will be a referendum of sorts on the sub decision.

And if the wrong people win the Liberal Party wants us to know Labor will scuttle the AUKUS deal

Won't be just just AUKUS that gets scuttled if that happens. But i don't believe Labor will scuttle it.

It's still a bit concerning that Labor's statement says they accept nuclear propulsion is now the best option.

Now ? eh ? what about later ?? And the man leading Labour, Albanese or Albo as Sky refers to him is anti-nuclear everything (!)

We do get an inkling of why the Liberal party would not want France to know about AUCKUS because then Labor would mess with it.

I wonder whether Labor were kept in the dark though ? No hissy fit means they must have had some clue.

Labor were the ones who opposed nuke sub from the start. They managed to spook the Liberals long enough not to change course until they couldn't

The argument made later is the French are unreliable so going with the US is better.

Labor should have been much much more worried when we were promising to buy our subs from France because France is a very unreliable partner.

Three times it promised to deliver weapons to countries that had ordered them only not to deliver them or deliver the crucial spares when those countries were in wars that France decided it didn't like.

1967 when Israel was at war with Egypt, France refused to hand over the mirage jets and spares Israel had ordered

in 1980 when Iran was fighting Iraq, France stopped the delivery of patrol boats that Iran had ordered

in 1982 when Argentina was at war with Britain, France wouldn't deliver the missiles that Argentina had ordered

And i would guess that god forbid we ever were at war with China and France would think i'd rather sit this one out actually.

Do you reckon our French subs would actually turn up all the spares ? NO

I'd trust the US and Britain to stand by us in those circumstances much much more than the French

Check out that bolded bit AR because anchor Andrew Bolt thinks otherwise.

Curious. I do recall an Exocet downing a British ship.

[TopHatter]

Check out that bolded bit AR because anchor Andrew Bolt thinks otherwise.

I see you're doing your usual fine job of not actually reading what people post. Keep up the good work!

Curious. I do recall an Exocet downing a British ship.

What? Impossible! Andrew Bolt plainly said that French didn't deliver the missiles that Argentina ordered!

[Bigfella]

Fuck me sideways! someone is using Andrew Bolt in a factual discussion. I assume this is some sort of attempt at satire.

Bolt is a Murdoch lifer and Trump fanboi who wouldn't know a reliable fact if it tore his head off & crapped down his neck.

Andrew Bolt on WAB. Fuck me. How far we have fallen.

(need a slow head shake emoji)

[Chunder]

What? Impossible! Andrew Bolt plainly said that French didn't deliver the missiles that Argentina ordered!

Ignore Bolt. For that there's a lot that aren't worth the time.

DE, I'd bet Albanese is just throwing some meat to the green vote preference. Its his election to loose. I don't see him starting another acquisition process. If the LNP is serious, and I expect they are they'll advance some options the public hasn't fully grasped yet prior to election. I don't think they'll kick the can down the road . Regardless of the decision to acquire, there's going to be significant issues that will no doubt dominate some news to come. It's politically advantageous for them to get the flywheel going for although the public may not care about defence that much, there's nothing like the perception of extended government incompetence to sway elections- and this is a project that offers just that.

I don't think the timeline favours a local build. I think that will come to pass soon enough. They'll have to do a swapsies with other projects.

That all being said the spotlight has been on Morrison, Biden & the French. It hasn't been on Dutton or Payne, where they've been or the postings of the RAN capital assets this last week. Lends me to believe the government is very serious.

[TopHatter]

Ignore Bolt. For that there's a lot that aren't worth the time.

Oh you can rest assured that I absolutely will. Among others.

[Bigfella]

Dutton is busy trying to undermine a war crimes investigation. He is happy to be out of the spotlight right now.