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  • Sure, but weapons aren't the only thing. It needs to be survivable which doesn't necessarily mean armor or solid steel and kevlar. It needs systems for damage control, redundancy in utilities, power distribution, and a crew that can use these systems. So far they don't have it and adding some more weapons won't change that.
    I did read somewhere though I can't find the article now, that Lockheed claims they can retrofit survivability changes to it. Haven't read anything about the
    General Dynamics LCS though. If you have to go thru all that trouble, just kill it now and invest in the patrol frigate. Huge percentage of the design is already done and paid for since it's basically the USCG national security cutter.

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    • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
      Gunner porn
      yep, the wife is getting lucky tonight.
      La la la la la...TMI TMI...la la la la la la....
      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DonBelt View Post
        Haven't read anything about the
        General Dynamics LCS though. If you have to go thru all that trouble, just kill it now and invest in the patrol frigate. Huge percentage of the design is already done and paid for since it's basically the USCG national security cutter.
        This, imho, would be the smartest thing the USN has done in a long time; they'd get a proper warship for a fraction of the cost of the LCS...

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        • I believe an upgraded NSC would cost a bit more than LCS.

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          • Originally posted by surfgun View Post
            I believe an upgraded NSC would cost a bit more than LCS.
            Oops, yeah, just checked that, guess I was thinking about european ships. But at least it would be bought fully armed...

            Comment


            • Couldn't quickly find a patrol frigate price, but the LCS starts out around $705 m and goes down to around $360 m per ship over the run. The NSC has a fixed price of around $680 per ship. But if the LCS has to have a number of survivability changes made that could raise the price and still not get you the vessel that an NSC variant would. All I know is, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!

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              • I stumbled across an interesting clip of the LCS's 57mm gun attacking small boats with airburst rounds.

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                • Originally posted by DonBelt View Post
                  Couldn't quickly find a patrol frigate price, but the LCS starts out around $705 m and goes down to around $360 m per ship over the run. The NSC has a fixed price of around $680 per ship. But if the LCS has to have a number of survivability changes made that could raise the price and still not get you the vessel that an NSC variant would. All I know is, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!
                  NSC is built to commercial standards, below the level 1+ survivability of LCS.

                  They would have to do some redesign of NSC to improve survivability to that of LCS.

                  The quoted section below was taken from:
                  http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...combatants.pdf


                  JULY 2009 Options for Combining the Navy’s and the Coast Guard’s Small Combatant Programs
                  CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES, CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE

                  The Coast Guard’s new high-endurance cutter—also
                  known as the national security cutter—is designed to
                  replace the 378-foot Hamilton class cutters...

                  The first ship of the class, the Bertholf (see Figure 3), has
                  been delivered to the Coast Guard, but the program has
                  experienced significant cost increases and schedule delays.
                  When construction of the ship began in 2004, the Coast
                  Guard expected it would join its fleet in 2006, but the
                  ship was not delivered until 2008. Originally projected to
                  cost $475 million, the ship’s costs have increased to about
                  $750 million. Those cost increases have affected production
                  of subsequent ships of the class by increasing the
                  overall cost of the program by about 40 percent.

                  ...

                  A critical difference between the Coast Guard’s cutters
                  and the Navy’s littoral combat ship is the level of survivability
                  for which the Navy’s vessels are designed and constructed.
                  Because the LCS is considered primarily a warship,
                  the Navy has designed it to sustain some degree of
                  damage during combat (the exact amount is classified)
                  and still remain afloat. Important elements of that survivability
                  include stronger bulkheads, watertight compartmentalization,
                  and extensive damage-control systems.

                  Such higher survivability standards add to a ship’s costs,
                  which the Coast Guard has been generally unwilling to
                  pay for in its cutter programs. The reason is straightforward:
                  Although the service may expect its cutters to be
                  called to serve in wartime operations, those vessels are not
                  expected to participate in direct combat operations. For
                  example, during the initial phases of Operations Desert
                  Storm and Iraqi Freedom, Coast Guard cutters were not
                  involved with destroying Iraq’s small naval forces or clear-
                  ing mines from ports. Once those early activities were
                  concluded, however, Coast Guard cutters operated (and
                  continue to operate) in the Middle East, providing
                  patrols and contributing to maritime interception activities.
                  The fact that the Navy’s ships and the Coast Guard’s
                  cutters are built to different levels of survivability does
                  not mean that the Navy could not adopt a Coast Guard
                  cutter as a naval ship platform; if it did so, however, it
                  would be taking on more risk than it would prefer if the
                  ship was used in combat.

                  Another issue is that Naval Vessel Rules are being adhered
                  to in the construction of the Navy’s LCS but not for the
                  construction of the Coast Guard’s NSC. Naval Vessel
                  Rules are a set of standards, specifications, and requirements
                  developed by the American Bureau of Shipping in
                  conjunction with the Navy to guide the construction of
                  naval ships. They are analogous to the building codes
                  used to construct commercial or residential buildings.
                  The type of ship one plans to build will determine which
                  provisions of the NVR are relevant to that particular ship
                  program. The national security cutter was not built to
                  NVR standards because those guidelines did not yet exist
                  when the first NSCs were designed and built. The LCS
                  program was also under way when the NVR came into
                  existence, but the Navy decided to apply the rules to the
                  LCS retroactively—a decision that caused the costs of the
                  LCS to go up. (The Navy and the LCS’s shipbuilders disagree
                  about exactly how much of the ship’s cost growth is
                  attributable to the adoption of NVR.)...
                  .
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                  • Also, with these being intended for use in the littorals, they wanted relatively shallow draft.


                    Fincantieri's monohull, USS Freedom (LCS 1) variant has 13 foot maximum navigational draft.

                    USS FREEDOM



                    Austal's trimaran, USS Independence (LCS 2) variant has 14 foot maximum navigation draft.

                    USS INDEPENDENCE



                    HI's monohull NSC, USCGC Bertholf (WMSL-750) has 22.5 foot draft (max navigational?).

                    http://www.uscg.mil/acquisition/nsc/pdf/nsc.pdf
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                    • Here is a pretty cool video about the early testing of the LCS Freedom and Independence. Is the jury out on this ship, is it actually the piece of crap that everyone seems to think it is?
                      Last edited by dan m; 12 Dec 14,, 02:29.

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                      • In the news...

                        Hagel Approves Navy’s Proposal to Build More Lethal LCS Variant

                        Dec 11, 2014 by Kris Osborn for Military.com

                        The Navy is surging forward with plans to build a new, more lethal Littoral Combat Ship variant engineered with a host of new technologies, weapons and systems to begin procurement by 2019, service leaders announced Thursday.

                        The new Small Surface Combatant, or SSC, emerged as a result of recommendations to Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel from a unit tasked with analyzing possibilities for a new LCS variant called the Small Surface Combatant Task Force.

                        "After rigorous review and analysis, today I accepted the Navy's recommendation to build a new Small Surface Combatant ship based on upgraded variants of the LCS. The new SSC will offer improvements in ship survivability and lethality, delivering enhanced naval combat performance at an affordable price," Hagel said in a written statement.

                        This past January, Hagel instructed the Navy that there would be no new contracts awarded for LCS production beyond 32 ships, instructing the Navy to consider a host of alternative proposals for the remaining 20 ships slated to complete the 52-ship program.

                        Hagel cited many criticisms of the LCS platform such as concerns that it lacked the lethality and survivability that it needed to complete its desired range of mission sets. As a result, he inspired the creation of the Small Surface Combatant Task Force which focused on identifying a new LCS design featuring vastly improved survivability.

                        The task force explored more than 192 different design concepts and consulted with fleet commanders, industry, surface warfare officers, engineers and program managers, among others.

                        "They did a remarkable job. It was very deliberate. It was very detailed and it was very analytical and informed," said Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert.

                        Instead of focusing of interchangeable sets of integrated technologies called mission packages like those used for the existing LCS, the new modified ship will simultaneously be configured for surface warfare and anti-submarine warfare, Greenert said.

                        "The Navy needs a Small Surface Combatant and this ship meets that need. The secretary directed us to bring forward with our 2017 budget proposal an acquisition plan to forward fit these capabilities into a 2019 timeframe," Greenert said.

                        Mine counter-measures mission packages will be handled by the regular LCS ships already in production.

                        5"It will feature an improved air defense radar, air defense decoys, a new, more effective electronic warfare system, an over-the-horizon anti-ship missile, multi-function towed array sonar, torpedo defenses and additional armor protection," Hagel said.

                        The new ship will feature specially configured space armor designed to better protect the ship and its crew. In addition, the ship will have improved decoy systems to divert incoming enemy missions and an upgrade to a missile-interceptor ship defense system called SeaRAM.

                        The new ship will also be configured with what's called improved signature management, meaning technologies which make the vessel less detectable to enemy radar and less susceptible to enemy mines.

                        Alongside the new modifications, the ship will also incorporate many of the weapons systems and technologies currently on the LCS such as 30mm guns, a ship-launched Hellfire missile, 11m rigid inflatable boats and a 57mm gun.

                        Greenert also added that the Navy was directed to come up with a proposal to explore whether any of the additional survivability technologies could be retrofitted onto existing LCS ships or engineered into those entering production.

                        The new modifications will add about $65 to $70 million to the price of the ship, an increase which amounts to less than 20-percent of the overall cost of the ship, Navy officials said.

                        The variant I would like to see:

                        Attached Files
                        Last edited by JRT; 12 Dec 14,, 13:43.
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                        • Originally posted by JRT View Post

                          The variant I would like to see:
                          So, a proper warship... ;)

                          Still think the USN would save a ton of Money if they dropped the top speed to 30-35knt...

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                          • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                            So, a proper warship... ;)

                            Still think the USN would save a ton of Money if they dropped the top speed to 30-35knt...
                            Why? It's still a POS. Speed is the only thing they got going for them.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JRT View Post
                              NSC is built to commercial standards, below the level 1+ survivability of LCS.

                              They would have to do some redesign of NSC to improve survivability to that of LCS.

                              The quoted section below was taken from:
                              http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...combatants.pdf
                              So....$1B after all said and done...for a frigate...
                              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                              Comment


                              • USN studies radars and rockets for Fire Scout UAVs - IHS Jane's 360
                                The US Navy (USN) plans to open a competition in early 2015 for a new maritime search radar for its Northrop Grumman MQ-8C Fire Scout unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) and could also begin testing an armed B-model in the new year, the USN's Fire Scout programme manager said on 17 December.

                                "We're … looking for [a radar] that is relatively off the shelf, but that has some of the modern capabilities," Captain Jeff Dodge said during a press briefing in Washington. He said he is interested in several modes: synthetic aperture, reverse synthetic aperture, and motion tracking.

                                While the aircraft's existing electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) sensors are very effective for targeting, he said a maritime radar for broader searches in the vast oceanic environments in which it will operate is still needed. A request for proposal (RfP) could come as early as the first quarter of calendar year 2015.

                                Northrop Grumman delivered the first operational-standard MQ-8C to the USN early this month. Based on the Bell 407 helicopter, the aircraft is a larger and more capable version of the Schweizer Aircraft 330-based MQ-8B Fire Scout.

                                The MQ-8C has double the endurance and three times the payload capacity of the B-model. The C-model has a range of about 150 n miles and a payload capacity of more than 317 kg. It is outfitted to conduct ship-based intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) missions.

                                B-model production is now complete, according to Capt Dodge. A total of 30 were built, but only 23 of those will be in service. The USN's new programme of record is 40 aircraft. Earlier this year, the navy's transition to the C-model caused a Nunn-McCurdy breach, which initiated a rebaseline of the programme to 40 MQ-8C vehicles in addition to the B-models built to date.

                                The navy began testing the MQ-8C on 16 December aboard the USS Jason Dunham , said Capt Dodge. The UAV is expected to achieve initial operational capability (IOC) in 2016. The MQ-8B, meanwhile, is already operational. Most recently, it was teamed with a Lockheed Martin MH-60R manned helicopter on the USS Fort Worth (LCS 3).

                                "We will be ready for [MQ-8C] IOC in 2016," said Capt Dodge. "The question is going to be ship availability .... We'll have the supplies and the training and the aircraft ready."

                                The USN is considering additional payloads for both Fire Scout variants. In the near term, the navy plans to test the BAE Systems Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System (APKWS) on the MQ-8C, he said. The B-model has already completed land-based testing with the system. The next step would be sea-based testing of an armed B-model, followed by manufacturing and integration of a larger rocket pod for the C-model by late 2015.

                                COMMENT
                                With no international Fire Scout sales on the visible horizon, the USN's only hope for a partner to augment its buy quantity, thereby putting pressure on cost, is the US Coast Guard.

                                Last week, the navy and the coastguard tested the unarmed version of the MQ-8B aboard a national security cutter, said Capt Dodge.

                                "They're interested in the capabilities of UAVs," he said but made no specific mention of the Fire Scout. "They want to better understand how that fits into their concept of operations."

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