Littoral Combat Ships

[Gun Grape]

You are quite right about the SSGN conversion, I forgot about that and will edit my earlier post accordingly.

Wiki lists the Trident II as being capable of carrying 12 RVs, however that does not mean it is used that way in practice. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they opted to take out a few warheads in favor of decoys and such.

Thanks for the correction!

The START treaty limits each missile to 8 warheads.

[Stitch]

The START treaty limits each missile to 8 warheads.

Also, the range is increased with each warhead not loaded; with a "full load" (whether 8 warheads or 12 warheads is not stated) range is 4,230 nm, with a "reduced load" the range increases to approx. 7000 nm.

[SteveDaPirate]

That's a good point Stitch. With development of the S-400 and S-500 systems as well as their inevitable Chinese counterparts, I imagine the extra space available from removing 4 RVs could be put to good use with decoys and ECM and such. I would think those things would be quite a bit lighter than an actual warhead, so some extra range might be gained as well.

[jlvfr]

And how many of those SSGNs will carry nuclear-tiped cruise missiles? These would have more than enough range & punch to wreck costal areas.

Going back to the subject: all of this makes me even more certain that a multi-purpose frigate-sized ship doesn't need 40knt speeds. With modern guided weapons and sensors, you can't run away. Either defend (active/passive) or call for help.

[SteveDaPirate]

The biggest advantage I can see with a 40knt speed for a ship is not so much for a fleet action, but the ability to pop up in unexpected places. An LCS detected this afternoon could slip away at night and be anywhere in a huge radius by tomorrow morning.

When I think of how an LCS platform might be used in a conventional war, it would be going after merchant ships and patrol craft with the speed to stay the hell away from the group of angry destroyers coming to stop it. Its speed is what would allow it to keep away from the fleet vessels it can't fight and then turn up again somewhere unexpected to harass the enemy again.

[jlvfr]

When I think of how an LCS platform might be used in a conventional war, it would be going after merchant ships and patrol craft with the speed to stay the hell away from the group of angry destroyers coming to stop it.

You mean the destroyers fited with high subsonic/low supersonic ASMs and radar guided guns, not to mention the missile firing/tracking helicopters?

[Gun Grape]

And how many of those SSGNs will carry nuclear-tiped cruise missiles? These would have more than enough range & punch to wreck costal areas.

None of them. The TLAM-N has been retired
The USAF is the sole user of nuclear tipped cruise missiles.

The TacTom is nothing to sneeze at. It has plenty of punch to get the job done. Without causing a nuclear exchange

[SteveDaPirate]

You mean the destroyers fited with high subsonic/low supersonic ASMs and radar guided guns, not to mention the missile firing/tracking helicopters?

Yes, a ship like the LCS obviously can't outrun a ASM, but it can play keep away from the firing/spotting platforms or operate in concert with DDG-51s.

I would think the LCS would be zooming around the littorals while it's helicopters harass enemy subs, mine layers, or merchant ships, then getting the hell out of dodge as soon as it gets reports of enemy fleet units heading towards the area.

[desertswo]

Yes, a ship like the LCS obviously can't outrun a ASM, but it can play keep away from the firing/spotting platforms or operate in concert with DDG-51s.

I would think the LCS would be zooming around the littorals while it's helicopters harass enemy subs, mine layers, or merchant ships, then getting the hell out of dodge as soon as it gets reports of enemy fleet units heading towards the area.

I've laid eyeballs on both classes from pier side. Most recently two weeks ago in San Diego. Lady(s) and gentlemen, these are not small ships. I would offer that all of the space available may not have been optimally used in order to allow for the design features, both in terms of engineering plant, and hull design, that allow those things to haul ass with great alacrity. Being fast and stealthy is great, but not when you cannot punch your way out of a wet paper bag. Somewhere there has to be a happy medium. I'm not a naval architect so I can't offer any suggestions there, other than to say that the guys at NAVSEASYCOM amongst many other way points on the road to commissioned status weren't nearly as creative as they ought to have been when it comes to packing a punch.

Personally, I'd shitcan this whole idea of "mission packages," and give them a core competency. What is that? Well, the late-Vice Admiral Art Cebrowski talked of a "streetfighter," and supposedly the LCS grew out of that. Personally, I believe the good admiral must be rolling over in his grave, because this is NOT streetfighter! So if it isn't let's give it to him then and make it one bad "gangsta." Screw fighting fair. I'd have gone with a little less aviation capability, and a whole lot more AAW, and ASuW ass-kicked-ness. Give it a main gun with some "Oomph" (a BAE MK45 5"/62 Mod 4 in lieu of the rail gun that fairly screams for employment in such a platform; until and unless that system comes online), and fit it wherever the hell it will fit, and an air search radar that is worth a damn, and/or baring that, then tap once again into Art Cebrowski's original streetfighter concept; plug them into a network of similar, smaller, stealthier, and above all, FASTER (which is another form of "stealth" after all) "missile barns."
These should be ships with plenty of arrows in the quiver and high on the four "Cs" of C4ISR, but can be lacking on the ISR part. In other words, lower echelon players in the Cooperative Engagement Concept. They go where they are told to go, and launch when the "mother ship" tells them to (perhaps even remotely and automatically).

I could go on, but one would hope people here would see the point. As is, I have no use for these ships, but with a little imagination and buy-in to this concept of a core competencies, it's not too late to turn these ships into pretty decent combat systems platforms.

[USSDD715~DD510~]

I'nm sorry but... roll over into what? The kind of scenario you're describing would wreck the continent. Or do you think the massive quantities of dust, most of which radioactive, would sit quietly in their target areas? The entire North America (which, btw, includes Canada) would become a radiactive wasteland. Radiation, clouds and winds do not magically stop at the border.

And the US retaliation? "submarines and nuclear facilities are penned safely beneath HUGE MOUNTAIN AREAS"? Maybe, but their factories, cities, ports, power stations, damns, air bases, barracks, etc are most certainly not.

Btw, subs inside "mountain areas"? You sure you're not thinking of Sweden?

===========================

Right now, the only thing I would sign my name to is the fact that China is attempting to buy as much of Northern Canada as they can get their hands on; (and they are also doing that around the world)

The other thing I would sign my name to is this: IF, and that is a big IF. IF China had a reason to go nuclear against the US politically, they wouldn't just pop off a nuclear bomb. It would be AWE and DESTRUCTION. Hiroshima revisited x 10 Devastation so great that the country completely collapses;

Now, that is NOT what I am saying is going to happen. That is NOT a specific prediction by me. In "war scenarios" you at least examine at great length all the possibilities and then you drop back to probabilities. THAT is the reason it is important to "spy". This is why you need intelligence. Here is the eternal question: "What is that other country REALLY going or willing to do" ?

China, like Algeria is counting on "water pens" essentially built (or carved out) under a mountain to assure invisible entry and egress. (Obviously you can't place a submarine under a solid earth mountain !) If you have an underwater passage, you can drive the subs in and out in secret. This makes it much harder for outsiders to know what is at home, or what is at sea. For example, during a prelude to attack, you might exit 12 nuclear submarines in as little as 48 hrs.

That might be something the West would like to know.

As I understand it, it is a very logical way to avoid snooping satellite coverage of your movements. ( I would do the same thing)

Algeria isn't a typical topic of conversation in the submarine world since they their force is roughly the size of Cuba's. Nonetheless, If I remember correctly, they have an underwater entry too. I don't know if the French had anything to do with that. (Think back to some of the old James Bond movies and the OLD Disney movie "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea"

[jlvfr]

The other thing I would sign my name to is this: IF, and that is a big IF. IF China had a reason to go nuclear against the US politically, they wouldn't just pop off a nuclear bomb. It would be AWE and DESTRUCTION. Hiroshima revisited x 10 Devastation so great that the country completely collapses;

And then the US retaliates and bye bye China. It's called MAD, and kep the USSR and the US from blowing each other up...

China, like Algeria is counting on "water pens" essentially built (or carved out) under a mountain to assure invisible entry and egress.

Algeria has mountains pretty much at the water's edge. China?...

[gunnut]

The other thing I would sign my name to is this: IF, and that is a big IF. IF China had a reason to go nuclear against the US politically, they wouldn't just pop off a nuclear bomb. It would be AWE and DESTRUCTION. Hiroshima revisited x 10 Devastation so great that the country completely collapses;

Now, that is NOT what I am saying is going to happen. That is NOT a specific prediction by me. In "war scenarios" you at least examine at great length all the possibilities and then you drop back to probabilities. THAT is the reason it is important to "spy". This is why you need intelligence. Here is the eternal question: "What is that other country REALLY going or willing to do" ?

What doesn't make sense in this scenario is volume. We have way more warheads and way more delivery vehicles, both conventional and nuclear, to ensure that China collapses far more completely than us.

Our conventional bombs can reach probably 80% of all power generating capacity in China. Most of these weapons probably will survive first strike by China. Things can get tough even for the CCP if 800 million people all of sudden lose their cell phones and World of Warcraft and Alibaba.

[gunnut]

Two, I live in North America. My wife hails from Montreal, Canada. We talk with the French Canadian extended family every year or so, (in French, of course). The Canadians at this moment (being helped by liberal government interests) are selling quite a bit of Northern Canada to the CHINESE.

Are you aware of that ?

My French Canadian father in law understands that the Chinese will use the land not only for growing food, but for SPYING AND KEEPING TABS ON CANADIANS AND AMERICANS. What I am talking about is Chinese physical presence on North American territory. Now the Chinese will tell you that it is to grow and supply food for a growing China. (Are they out of land in China ? ) The reality is that food growing gives them "plausible denial" . Why we don't spy ! We are just growing vegetables on this wonderful, rich, soil, (which by the way, it is !) In reality it is a half truth. And half truths are LIES.

Wasn't there a fear of the large Japanese population of farm workers in Hawaii aiding the impending Japanese landing at Oahu? Rumors had it that these Japanese sugar cane farmers cut down sugar canes in the form of large arrows, pointing to the direction of Pearl Harbor, for the Japanese pilots on Dec. 7th, 1941.

By the way, I'm not a farmer, nor do I pretend to know anything about plants. But what can one grow in Northern Canada?

Now, I'm not going to push this too far, because I AM NOT a reckless "conspiricist", but I have talked to a New Zealander (who I think IS in his right mind) who believes that the Chinese, living "peacefully", in the Canadian North, would also provide ongoing day by day intelligence that could or might be used to coordinate a devastating submarine nuclear attack against The United States from the north. My New Zealand friend believes that China is capable of launching an extremely quick, but devastating attack against the United States. (Think the Canadians could stop them ? )

According to his scenario, China then would roll over Canada into the chaos and aftermath of devastating nuclear destruction, and what opposition would they meet ?

Roll over Canada with what? Large immigrant population?

Yes, the US could counterattack, but China is large. Their submarines and nuclear facilities are penned safely beneath HUGE MOUNTAIN AREAS, really, really, really hard to get to. We would have to use everything in the arsenal, and I personally am not sure (as of today) we could totally destroy and knock out a will to wage war.

Destroy the power grid to cripple the economy. Can't make war without money.

[JRT]

...China is attempting to buy as much of Northern Canada as they can get their hands on; (and they are also doing that around the world)...

China's export driven economy is generating a lot of money for them to spend.

20th century provides good illustration of how much can quickly change.

Below was quoted from the Joint Operating Environment (JOE), 2010.
(link)

Strategic Estimates in the Twentieth Century

1900 - If you are a strategic analyst for the world’s leading power, you are British, looking warily at Britain’s
age old enemy, France.

1910 - You are now allied with France, and the enemy is now Germany.

1920 - Britain and its allies have won World War I, but now the British find themselves engaged in a naval
race with its former allies, the United States and Japan.

1930 - For the British, naval limitation treaties are in place, the Great Depression has started, and defense
planning for the next five years assumes a “ten year” rule – no war in ten years. British planners
posited the main threats to the Empire as the Soviet Union and Japan, while Germany and Italy are
either friendly or no threat.

1936 - A British planner now posits three great threats: Italy, Japan, and the worst, a resurgent Germany,
while little help can be expected from the United States.

1940 - The collapse of France in June leaves Britain alone in a seemingly hopeless war with Germany and
Italy, with a Japanese threat looming in the Pacific. The United States has only recently begun to
scramble to rearm its military forces.

1950 - The United States is now the world’s greatest power, the atomic age has dawned, and a “police action”
begins in June in Korea that will kill over 36,500 Americans, 58,000 South Koreans, nearly 3,000 Allied
soldiers, 215,000 North Koreans, 400,000 Chinese, and 2,000,000 Korean civilians before a cease-fire
brings an end to the fighting in 1953. The main opponent in the conflict is China, America’s ally in the
war against Japan.

1960 - Politicians in the United States are focusing on a missile gap that does not genuinely exist; massive
retaliation will soon give way to flexible response, while a small insurgency in South Vietnam hardly
draws American attention.

1970 - The United States is beginning to withdraw from Vietnam, its military forces in shambles. The Soviet
Union has just crushed incipient rebellion in the Warsaw Pact. Détente between the Soviets and
Americans has begun, while the Chinese are waiting in the wings to create an informal alliance with
the United States.

1980 - The Soviets have just invaded Afghanistan, while a theocratic revolution in Iran has overthrown the
Shah’s regime. “Desert One” – an attempt to free American hostages in Iran – ends in a humiliating
failure, another indication of what pundits were calling “the hollow force.” America is the greatest
creditor nation the world had ever seen.

1990 - The Soviet Union collapses. The supposedly hollow force shreds the vaunted Iraqi Army in less than
100 hours. The United States has become the world’s greatest debtor nation. Very few outside of the
Department of Defense and the academic community use the Internet.

2000 - Warsaw is the capital of a North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) nation. Terrorism is emerging as
America’s greatest threat. Biotechnology, robotics, nanotechnology, HD energy, etc. are advancing
so fast they are beyond forecasting.

2010 - Take the above and plan accordingly! What will be the disruptions of the next 25 years?

[JRT]

But what can one grow in Northern Canada?
.

An oil business.

The Globe and Mail: For China, an oil sands investment that can't be blocked.