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  • Originally posted by DonBelt View Post
    still like to keep heavy industry with it's jobs and trades closer to home.
    It's not just that. Let's face it, who else could afford US-sized and priced ships? US ships are simply too expensive... and US shipyards don't seem to even try to design smaller, cheaper ships for export. They left the field open for the MEKO and such to completely dominate...

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    • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
      40 and 50 year old ships, sold 2nd hand. Not exactly new models...
      I wasn't implying that they were new ships, and BTW, Brooke was only 21 years old when we decommissioned her. Not old by any stretch of the imagination. Jesse L. Brown was only 22. Regardless, I was just relating my experience in FMS, which is probably more extensive than most folks in the US Navy, but more than likely owing to my background in 1200 PSI steam propulsion. Once you got tarred with that brush, it was hard to escape the more "interesting" details that came my way.

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      • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
        When was the last time the US actually exported a warship, except for Israel and Taiwan, who (till recently) had no other choices?...
        Well, then, time to bring something new to the market? Maybe something smaller, multi-missioned, not so tailor-made for the USN product?

        Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
        Fact is US-built ships are simply too big and expensive. No one else uses such large vessels; and Europe is the leader in frigate/corvete construction...
        Hence why a slower design bristling with weapons and multi-mission is always the alternative to the current LCS design. USN wants a specific design to fit a specific role that few others have a need for. Contractors offer an alternative that might appeal to the USN plus foreign customers. Doesn't hurt to offer an alternative. The fee to design another product on paper is miniscule in the grand scheme of things.
        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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        • Drop the LCS program entirely. Use LSD-41 class ships in this format:

          That's 8 Mk VI patrol craft, each one with a range of 600 nm+, numerous RHIB's, and the LSD 41 has the ability to provide air cover and support with USMC SuperCobras or Vipers, USA OH-58's (or their eventual replacements), armed SeaHawks or even Harriers, it has the range to deploy to any part of the globe. If you pair it with Cyclone class patrol ships or existing LCS, you have the anti-piracy, interdiction, 3rd world littoral environment pretty well covered. It can provide support, command and control and supply for all those vessels. If you are up against 4th or 5th gen aircraft, then you need a capital ship like a CG or CVN- that is the threats they are for, not more littoral ships.

          For the frigate role- get a frigate! The Patrol Frigate 4921 concept would be built by Huntington/Ingalls, is a proven design, has sea legs. The F-100 frigate designed and built in Spain could be license built here in the US by Bath Iron Works, who had some say in its' design. It also has a track record.

          For MCM, operate helicopter based anti-mine systems from any ship with a flight deck, maybe a remote like the Slocum Glider will be developed for an anti-mine role, or better yet, just get a mission specific mine sweeper built from the keel up. I'm not a big fan of steel hulled ships doing minesweeping as a secondary mission.

          Besides, one ship that is cheap, non-manpower intensive, and can do everything from the same hull at high speed is how we got here in the first place. It just doesn't exist.
          Attached Files

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          • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
            When was the last time the US actually exported a warship, except for Israel and Taiwan, who (till recently) had no other choices?...

            Fact is US-built ships are simply too big and expensive. No one else uses such large vessels; and Europe is the leader in frigate/corvete construction...
            India was supposed to recieve a few retired US warships including an Amphib (LPD) Nashville. The deal still has not gone through as of yet. They already have the former USS Trenton.
            Last edited by Dreadnought; 22 May 14,, 03:42.
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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            • Originally posted by kato View Post
              "Corvette" is an ambiguous term. The last two french corvette classes for example were WW2-style heavily-armed ocean ASW escort DEs intended as blue water ASW pickets for the French Strategic Force (i.e. SSBNs) at sea.
              Actually its not. The Corvette origins trace back to whaling ships. The British and Canadians gave birth to the newer generation of Corvetts used during WWII for coastal patrol and convoy escort. Other nations have just taken it a step further and use the "ambigious term".
              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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              • Speaking of WWII naval vessels . Here is an early iteration of the LCS concept. A high speed multitasking war fighter with an impressive war record. One of my favorite classes from WW11 and one that could perhaps teach the designers of the LCS a thing or two. From Wikipedia (couldn't get the picture to load up).

                Name: Abdiel Class minelaying Cruiser , Operators: Royal Navy , In service: 1941, In commission: 1941 - 1972, Completed: 6, Lost: 3, Retired: 3

                General characteristics: Type: Minelayer , Displacement: 2,650 tons standard, 3,415 tons full (1938 group) / 3,475 tons (WEP group)

                Length: 400 ft 6 in (122.07 m) (p/p), 418 ft (127 m) (o/a), Beam: 40 ft (12 m) , Draught: 11 ft 3 in (3.43 m), 14 ft 9 in (4.50 m) (full)

                Propulsion: 4 Admiralty 3-drum water-tube boilers, Parsons geared steam turbines, 2 shafts, 72,000 shp (54,000 kW)

                Speed: (39.75 knots (73.62 km/h), (38 knots (70 km/h) (full) , Range: 1,000 nmi (1,900 km) at 38 knots (70 km/h), Complement: 242,

                Armament:
                (1938 group)
                6 QF 4-inch (100 mm) Mark XVI guns on twin mounts HA/LA Mk.XIX
                4 QF 2-pounder (40 mm) Mk.VIII on quadruple mount Mk.VII
                8 0.5-inch (12.7 mm) Vickers machine guns on quadruple mount Mk.I (later up to 12 20 mm Oerlikons on single mounts P Mk.III or twin mounts Mk.V)
                156 mines
                (WEP group)
                4 QF 4 in Mark XVI on twin mounts HA/LA Mk.XIX
                4 (Apollo) / 6 (Ariadne) 40 mm Bofors on twin mounts "Hazemeyer" Mk.IV
                Up to 12 20 mm Oerlikons on single mounts P Mk.III or twin mounts Mk.V (later up to 6 40 mm Bofors on single mounts Mark V "Boffin"
                156 mines
                Last edited by Monash; 24 May 14,, 14:58.
                If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                • Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                  Actually its not. The Corvette origins trace back to whaling ships.
                  If we omit the previous centuries before that, yeah...

                  German corvettes pre-1900 for example were blue-water vessels the size of frigates (actually, they originally copied a British frigate to design the first "covered corvette" class) that were used for overseas missions and global power projection. They were usually only slightly more limited in their armament in comparison.

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                  • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                    Speaking of WWII naval vessels . Here is an early iteration of the LCS concept. A high speed multitasking war fighter with an impressive war record. One of my favorite classes from WW11 and one that could perhaps teach the designers of the LCS a thing or two. From Wikipedia (couldn't get the picture to load up).

                    Name: Abdiel Class minelaying Cruiser , Operators: Royal Navy , In service: 1941, In commission: 1941 - 1972, Completed: 6, Lost: 3, Retired: 3
                    Not really comparable, tbh. The Abdiel became a multitasker because it's primary role forced it to have a lot of room and speed to spare. That room and speed allowed it to make those epic supply runs to Malta. But it wasn't designed as multitasker.

                    For an example from WWII, I'd prefer to go with the RN's Fairmile C/D MGB/MTB class. Lots of guns, lots of speed and did every kind of mission one can think for a ship: from traditional gun/torpedo fights to night coastal bombardment, escorting landing craft, supply runs, special ops drops...

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                    • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                      Not really comparable, tbh. The Abdiel became a multitasker because it's primary role forced it to have a lot of room and speed to spare. That room and speed allowed it to make those epic supply runs to Malta. But it wasn't designed as multitasker.

                      For an example from WWII, I'd prefer to go with the RN's Fairmile C/D MGB/MTB class. Lots of guns, lots of speed and did every kind of mission one can think for a ship: from traditional gun/torpedo fights to night coastal bombardment, escorting landing craft, supply runs, special ops drops...
                      The Fairmiles were also a favorite of mine and I built models of them as a kid but they didn't have range to make them compatible with the Abdiel or the LCSs for that matter. With regards to my original point though I think the difference is that the Abdiels while not designed as multi-taskers got used as such and could still fight if they had to. The LCS on the other hand was designed as multi-tasker but (based on the evidence to date) can't fight if they had to - not while Sea Ram and is it still Griffin? remain their only options.
                      If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                      • Drop the 40 knot requirement. Seriously what's the point of that today? When the Abdiel & co were designed, sure. No radars or infrared for long range detection, no guided weapons... such high speed was a life saver. Today? Even Israel's Sa'ar 5 don't go much past 30...

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                        • Agree about the speed issue. Who needs a mine clearance vessel that can do 40 knots?
                          If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                          • The last time? I'd say the Perry's built for Australia in the early 80's. Before that? With the Shah of Iran with SSM-1 missiles off the top of my head. But I'd have to check to be sure what design those patrol boats were. Before that? Perhaps the Adams DDG's built West Germany and Australia in the 60's.

                            Export submarines (not hand me downs)? The Mackerel design (SS-204) boats built for Peru soon after WWII (again, would have to check for the date details).

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                            • We didn't build and then export them but the Spanish (Santa Maria class) and the Australians did build OHPs under license.

                              The Japanese built Burkes under license(with a few mods) as the Kongos (Flight I ) and the Atagos (Flight IIa).

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                              • Originally posted by Monash View Post
                                Agree about the speed issue. Who needs a mine clearance vessel that can do 40 knots?
                                A mine sweeper working suspected waters in front of a fleet doing a break out from a harbor?

                                .............it's just a thought.

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