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  • Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
    IMO, Create a new mount for the ships. Something along the lines of the original Stinger missles but with increased range and fast reloading instead of fire and forget tech.

    Just an idea.
    I wonder what kind of (limited, I'm sure) surface attack capability RAM has.

    I mean, it's not going to sink a carrier but a 24 lb warhead slamming into you at Mach 2 is probably going to sting a bit.

    A quick Wiki search turned up something interesting but not really up-to-date.

    In 1998, a memorandum of understanding was signed by the defense departments of Germany and the United States to improve the system, so that it could also engage so-called "HAS", Helicopter, Aircraft, and Surface targets. As developed, the HAS upgrade just required software modifications that can be applied to all Block 1 RAM missiles.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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    • Raytheon Company: RAM

      This says that Block 1A has capability against surface targets.

      US Navy Fires Raytheon Griffin® Missile From RAM Launcher - Apr 18, 2012

      Here is also about a test of Griffin from a RAM launcher, but honestly Griffin doesn't bring much to the table for LCS other than the potential to use a lower cost missile from the RAM/SEARAM launchers already on board.

      What I am really hoping to see is some module, possibly box launcher for LRASM when it eventually joins the fleet. Then LCS would have a legit punching capability against other ships. There has been some discussion recently that the USN surface fleet(not just LCS) is lacking when it comes to the ability to attack other ships and I think even in these times of scarce funding, money should be found for this. As far as I can tell, LRASM is the only real solution on the horizon.

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      • So can something like a Hellfire or APKWS pod work?

        Do the missile have to work in fog and mist? In that case can you mount the radar guided hellfire on an LCS? You might be able to put the LongBow radar on a mast to use as a designator.

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        • So can something like a Hellfire or APKWS pod work?
          Hellfire is already available on the MH-60, and does IMHO already consist a large portion of the available firepower for LCS. I know there has been work on Firescout with APWKS, not certain that MH-60 has this capability yet. Its potential against small boats of the sort Iran deploys is pretty clear. http://www.armada.ch/bae-system-apkw...itime-testing/

          I am actually not that concerned with the ability of LCS to deal with the small boat swarm style attack. If they were to employ tactics along the lines of: use 57mm, 30mm, RAM combined with speed to break contact followed by getting Firescout and MH-60 in the air to go hunting with Hellfire and APWKS, I could imagine LCS being effective against a small boat swarm. Where I get nervous would be with anything larger or missile carrying. There are a lot of those kinds of craft out there, the South China Sea in particular could get pretty thick with them.

          What I think needs to happen is either the LCS gets a full sized AShM, my preference would be LRASM(targeting data from BAMS/P8 sounds like a respectable capability to me), or the Navy investigates putting a much larger missile on MH-60. Either way, LCS will at some point require the ability to strike at larger targets than it currently has. I am not yet convinced that they will be unable to deliver this capability at a future point.
          Last edited by HKDan; 02 Jun 13,, 06:59.

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          • Originally posted by HKDan View Post
            This says that Block 1A has capability against surface targets.
            Block 1A = Block 1 with HAS mode = Block 0 with new IR seeker and HAS mode.
            The USN began switching all RAM installations to Block 1 missiles with HAS mode software upgrade in 2005. Dunno if they've finished yet.

            On a side note, the USN just (successfully) live-tested RAM Block 2 in the Indian Ocean. Missile is in LRIP for USN (60 missiles) and German Navy (100 missiles). Could be an option too. At least for near-horizon-range surface-target interception.

            LRASM is freaking huge btw. Size of a Tomahawk. Strike-length Mk41. No way you're putting that anywhere on a LCS. Only current intermediate-size weapon (Harpoon or smaller) in the west other than Harpoon Block III RGM-84L and Exocet MM40 Block 3 is NSM.

            Originally posted by HKDan View Post
            There has been some discussion recently that the USN surface fleet(not just LCS) is lacking when it comes to the ability to attack other ships
            Recently?

            That discussion started at least when the USN began not installing Harpoon on the Flight IIA Burkes and really took off when they eliminated Mk13/Harpoon on the OHPs. Ten years ago.

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            • Originally posted by HKDan View Post
              Hellfire is already available on the MH-60, and does IMHO already consist a large portion of the available firepower for LCS. I know there has been work on Firescout with APWKS, not certain that MH-60 has this capability yet. Its potential against small boats of the sort Iran deploys is pretty clear. BAE System APKWS

              I am actually not that concerned with the ability of LCS to deal with the small boat swarm style attack. If they were to employ tactics along the lines of: use 57mm, 30mm, RAM combined with speed to break contact followed by getting Firescout and MH-60 in the air to go hunting with Hellfire and APWKS, I could imagine LCS being effective against a small boat swarm. Where I get nervous would be with anything larger or missile carrying. There are a lot of those kinds of craft out there, the South China Sea in particular could get pretty thick with them.

              What I think needs to happen is either the LCS gets a full sized AShM, my preference would be LRASM(targeting data from BAMS/P8 sounds like a respectable capability to me), or the Navy investigates putting a much larger missile on MH-60. Either way, LCS will at some point require the ability to strike at larger targets than it currently has. I am not yet convinced that they will be unable to deliver this capability at a future point.
              If it gets the LRASM, how would it detect and target the enemy at long range? I suppose you could network it with something like BAMs. Then the Navy could have it doing guerrilla style hit and runs against larger ships....

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              • Originally posted by citanon View Post
                If it gets the LRASM, how would it detect and target the enemy at long range? I suppose you could network it with something like BAMs. Then the Navy could have it doing guerrilla style hit and runs against larger ships....
                Thats exactly what I was thinking.

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                • A little of track but I saw an article recently on the progress of the HSV program and I couldn't help thinking that the US Navy might not end up getting more use/utility out of those vessels than it will out of the LCVs. They are designed for shallow water operations, can act as transports for most of the time but could be if required fitted with enough weaponry to perform patrol duties in low intensity threat zones. (I was thinking RAM and/or a 57-76mm gun etc plus the usual light weapons.) So why couldn't the navy adapt their planned mine warfare modules to a modified HSV? As for larger missile I couldn't see a you would want to put a HSV -or a LCV for that matter in situations where they might be needed but ditto for a module or two of Harpoons.
                  Last edited by Monash; 04 Jun 13,, 03:49.
                  If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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                  • Originally posted by citanon View Post
                    So can something like a Hellfire or APKWS pod work?

                    Do the missile have to work in fog and mist? In that case can you mount the radar guided hellfire on an LCS? You might be able to put the LongBow radar on a mast to use as a designator.
                    Isn't the AGM-114 a little light for ship-to-ship combat? I admit it could punch a nice hole in pretty much any ship afloat, but it doesn't have much of a blast/fragmentation warhead, only about 8kg, IIRC. I'm sure it could take out a Boghammar or a go-fast boat, but it probably wouldn't do much damage to anything bigger than another LCS.
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                    • Think about it this way, the "alternative" is the AGM-176 Griffin which is lighter, has less range and an even smaller warhead...

                      Way this is going next thing they're gonna try firing Viper Strikes from spigot mortars as main missile armament for LCS :slap:

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                      • Originally posted by kato View Post
                        That discussion started at least when the USN began not installing Harpoon on the Flight IIA Burkes and really took off when they eliminated Mk13/Harpoon on the OHPs. Ten years ago.
                        It's been longer than that. When I was a student in the Department Head Course at Surface Warfare Officers School Command in Newport, RI, in the mid-80s, we were all told that Tomahawk TASM was going to be the anti-ship weapon of choice, and we all dutifully learned how to use it. Well, for whatever reason, TASM never really paid off, leaving us with Harpoon. I've never been particularly impressed by its track record in combat. Exocet always seems to hit its target, and even if it doesn't explode, as in the case of at least one of the missiles that hit USS Stark, it makes a hell of a mess with the fuel it spells, etc. We're just happy if Harpoon will even "see" that target!

                        Anyway, I did a tour in the Gulf in a "double-ender" (Leahy-class cruiser) with no gun save the two M242 Bushmasters, two M19 grenade launchers, four M2s and a grunch of M60 machine guns. We had Harpoon, and we could also fire our Standard Missiles in the surface mode. It wouldn't sink anything but it would make a hell of a mess out of antennae arrays and the like; in other words, a "mission kill." Still, a real main gun and a reliable anti-ship missile would have made us feel a lot better.

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                        • Too much emphasis on carriers for anti-ship, maybe?

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                          • Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                            It's been longer than that. When I was a student in the Department Head Course at Surface Warfare Officers School Command in Newport, RI, in the mid-80s, we were all told that Tomahawk TASM was going to be the anti-ship weapon of choice, and we all dutifully learned how to use it. Well, for whatever reason, TASM never really paid off, leaving us with Harpoon.
                            Just a civvie-puke observation but I was never terribly impressed with the TASM, especially compared to Soviet SSM's and the Exocet. The speed wasn't particularly impressive and (correct me if I'm wrong) it wasn't the wave-hugger that could've made up for that. Finally the thing was so darn big that you either needed the massive ABL (which limited to you to just 4 surface platforms, only one of which could carry it in significant numbers...at the cost of TLAM capacity) or VLS (which limited you to 3 platforms).

                            Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                            I've never been particularly impressed by its track record in combat. We're just happy if Harpoon will even "see" that target!
                            Wow, never knew that Harpoon wasn't held in the highest regard. Pretty disappointing actually.
                            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                              Wow, never knew that Harpoon wasn't held in the highest regard. Pretty disappointing actually.
                              To be fair, the early use of Harpoon was sketchy because we didn't have the full constellation of GPS up there yet. So the strikes against the Libyan navy and the Iranians were a mixed bag. See, most people don't realize that it isn't where the target is that matters. It's where the launch platform is that counts. You have to know down to the gnat's ass where you are in what is known as the "launch box." If the weapon knows where it is when it leaves the nest, then it will have that relative position to put into its guidance system when it starts its search for the target. GPS gives us the ability to refine our launch box down to that gnat's ass. When those aforementioned actions went down, the launch boxes were really big. I won't say how big because I'm sure that info is classified, but during Desert Storm, we had most, or at least more birds in outer space and the launch boxes got really small, and so the Tomahawks were extremely effective, because they knew where they started from.

                              In any event, the Harpoons may be more effective these days because the full constellation is up there, but we've not had a reason to find out in a long time. I am hopeful that if we do have to find out, the results will be better.

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                              • Sir,

                                We usually find a nugget or two of info per post but do you have a habbit of producing gold mines of info with every post?

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