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  • I enjoy the Frigate/Cruiser banter, but I think we have wandered off topic (LCS).

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    • Originally posted by Hoss View Post
      Pick your poison!



      Hoss,

      Very interesting, nice work, do you have specs on these? These look like battlecruisers alright.
      Fine modern gun ship design exercises, I don't think the USN is looking for ships like these, but they are a lot of fun to design and discuss.

      Perhaps you should start a new thread for this, so this one can stay on track.

      Alternately this thread might be appropriate:
      http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nav...ruisers-2.html
      Last edited by USSWisconsin; 23 Dec 10,, 00:12.
      sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
      If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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      • Originally posted by Hoss View Post
        The 57mm is in use on the Bertholf Class cutter in the USCG.
        USCG=not USN.

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        • Here's my proposal for a combat/spec opps geared LCS. I'll try to contain costs, and not turn them into mini-cruisers. I will also try to use current USN systems (with one exception):
          24 ESSM
          1 21-cell RAM
          8 Harpoon (or similar)
          1 Vulcan
          2 Bushmaster
          1 Oto Super Rapid 76mm (I believe the US uses the older model?)
          2 single ASW torpedo tubes
          hangar room for 2 Seahawks or equivalent weight/volume of UAVs or other helis.
          room for high-speed boats for SEALS, etc.
          4000 mile range at cruise speed, 32 knot top speed.

          IMHO, this would allow for good self-defense capacity, while still being able to kill ships at a good distance. The "Super Rapido" has far more capability to provide a good measure of fire support, while being very usefull for ASuW/AAA, than the 57mm. The Bushmaster is allready used in the San Antonio-class, so the only new weapons system (for the USN) is the Super Rapido. As for sensors, I'll admit I have no idea on specific models, so assume a good set of ASuW/AAA systems, without going into AEGIS territory. ASW-wise, and since it's not an ASW version, I think it could do with just a hull-mounted sonar.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
            Here's my proposal for a combat/spec opps geared LCS. I'll try to contain costs, and not turn them into mini-cruisers. I will also try to use current USN systems (with one exception):
            24 ESSM
            1 21-cell RAM
            8 Harpoon (or similar)
            1 Vulcan
            2 Bushmaster
            1 Oto Super Rapid 76mm (I believe the US uses the older model?)
            2 single ASW torpedo tubes
            hangar room for 2 Seahawks or equivalent weight/volume of UAVs or other helis.
            room for high-speed boats for SEALS, etc.
            4000 mile range at cruise speed, 32 knot top speed.

            IMHO, this would allow for good self-defense capacity, while still being able to kill ships at a good distance. The "Super Rapido" has far more capability to provide a good measure of fire support, while being very useful for ASuW/AAA, than the 57mm. The Bushmaster is already used in the San Antonio-class, so the only new weapons system (for the USN) is the Super Rapido. As for sensors, I'll admit I have no idea on specific models, so assume a good set of ASuW/AAA systems, without going into AEGIS territory. ASW-wise, and since it's not an ASW version, I think it could do with just a hull-mounted sonar.
            Sounds practical, I'd like to see a strong steel hull, a conventional one, to make them easier to repair and more survivable. Protection could be from compartmentalization and a thick skin. I think the fast 3" is a practical weapon choice and could give the ship an edge in longer range gun duals with light weight opponents. I do agree a 5" is overkill on a light LCS design. Also I tend to agree the speedboat performance of the current designs is too expensive in terms of reliability and machinery space, 30-32 knots seems like it would be enough with AShM's and a good bristling of light weapons (I'd like four or even six single mount Bushmasters to deal with a swarm attack). When you say Vulcan do you mean Phalanx CIWS?
            Last edited by USSWisconsin; 23 Dec 10,, 17:46.
            sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
            If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
              (I'd like four or even six single mount Bushmasters to deal with a swarm attack). When you say Vulcan do you mean Phalanx CIWS?
              Yep, the CIWS. And I didn't put in more Bushmaster-class weapons because of the Super Rapido. That mount has a ROF of up to 120 rounds, with a max range of 30kms. The Bushmasters are just a back up :)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hoss View Post
                What the hell do we need to do with 35+ knots....am I going to outrun missiles, aircraft or ordinance? Only thing your sure do at that speed is get torpedoed or hit a mine. YMMV
                I think the higher speed is not about trying to outrun an approaching missile, rather it allows the ship to transition between two positions in operational space in less time.

                Higher speed may enable a faster pace of operational manoever, reducing the available time for the opponent to Observe, Orient, Decide, and (re-)Act, reference to Boyd's OODA loop.
                Last edited by JRT; 23 Dec 10,, 18:37.
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                Comment


                • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                  Here's my proposal for a combat/spec opps geared LCS. I'll try to contain costs, and not turn them into mini-cruisers. I will also try to use current USN systems (with one exception):
                  24 ESSM
                  1 21-cell RAM
                  8 Harpoon (or similar)
                  1 Vulcan
                  2 Bushmaster
                  1 Oto Super Rapid 76mm (I believe the US uses the older model?)
                  2 single ASW torpedo tubes
                  hangar room for 2 Seahawks or equivalent weight/volume of UAVs or other helis.
                  room for high-speed boats for SEALS, etc.
                  4000 mile range at cruise speed, 32 knot top speed.

                  IMHO, this would allow for good self-defense capacity, while still being able to kill ships at a good distance. The "Super Rapido" has far more capability to provide a good measure of fire support, while being very usefull for ASuW/AAA, than the 57mm. The Bushmaster is allready used in the San Antonio-class, so the only new weapons system (for the USN) is the Super Rapido. As for sensors, I'll admit I have no idea on specific models, so assume a good set of ASuW/AAA systems, without going into AEGIS territory. ASW-wise, and since it's not an ASW version, I think it could do with just a hull-mounted sonar.
                  I don't think there's a need for LCS to carry Harpoons. Anything that needs a Harpoon could be bombed by carrier avaition or calling in missiles from other ships. Harpoons increase topside weight and needs a lot of shielding for the booster rocket. Besides, if an LCS is operating by herself, then there may not be OTH ability to utilize the range of a Harpoon. If there is (OTH), then that means bigger and badder ships are around and they can take care of the troubles.
                  Last edited by gunnut; 23 Dec 10,, 19:22.
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                    Yep, the CIWS. And I didn't put in more Bushmaster-class weapons because of the Super Rapido. That mount has a ROF of up to 120 rounds, with a max range of 30kms. The Bushmasters are just a back up :)
                    I'm thinking a Goalkeeper and maybe some SeaRAM would be more useful; the Phalanx is actually reaching the end of it's practical development cycle (meaning some threats have evolved beyond the ability of the Phalanx to be effective).
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

                    Comment


                    • I think the problem is that all these ideas are based on what YOU would like to see as the LCS mission. Not what the Navy see's it as.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                        I think the problem is that all these ideas are based on what YOU would like to see as the LCS mission. Not what the Navy see's it as.
                        I agree, we are disussing our opinions about possible alternative LSC's, the USN has already defined the production LCS's.
                        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                          I'm thinking a Goalkeeper and maybe some SeaRAM would be more useful; the Phalanx is actually reaching the end of it's practical development cycle (meaning some threats have evolved beyond the ability of the Phalanx to be effective).
                          I agree on the goalkeeper as a good upgrade to the Phalanx overall, its stronger gun makes sense to me, and it is more upgradeable, a 2nd gen CIWS, the Phalanx is a 1st gen system, running out of potential.
                          sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                          If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            I think the problem is that all these ideas are based on what YOU would like to see as the LCS mission. Not what the Navy see's it as.
                            100% correct...and it'll make a great patrol boat, I'm sure.

                            Comment


                            • I chose the Vulcan because I wanted to keep costs down by using current USN systems as much as possible. I too feel the Goalkeeper is far superior. As for the Harpoon, I wanted to give the LCS some longer range anti-ship capacity than the guns, and the USN has no other weapon (or am I wrong?), and the Seahawks have no SSM...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jlvfr View Post
                                I chose the Vulcan because I wanted to keep costs down by using current USN systems as much as possible. I too feel the Goalkeeper is far superior. As for the Harpoon, I wanted to give the LCS some longer range anti-ship capacity than the guns, and the USN has no other weapon (or am I wrong?), and the Seahawks have no SSM...
                                SM-2 can be used as an SSM.

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