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  • #91
    Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I know this is entirely wishful thinking and pie in the sky kind of thing. Yet, once in awhile, when I read things such as this new post I wonder what the world could have achieved if every country and leader could simply be happy with their current borders and place in the world.
    On that note:
    • The German Navy has begun training naval gunfire support again last year.
    • They use part of the Andoya Missile Range on some islands pretty far north up in Norway - see below. A few months ago a contract was formed to use the range long-term by the German Navy.
    • Exercises are sorta hidden under a MFE (Missile Firing Exercise) moniker - as in the NGS exercises are run as part of such.
    • MFE21, from which ships returned last week, saw artillery spotters of the 413th Jäger Battalion (Army) and the Sea Battalion (Navy) directing 150 rounds of 76mm fired by a frigate (and 100 rounds of 27mm fired by a support ship) onto shore targets, with battle damage assessment performed by a German P-3C. The frigate previously in the missile part of the exercise destroyed 15 air and 2 sea target drones using SM-2, ESSM, RAM and Harpoon. Originally a corvette was also supposed to contribute to both parts of the exercise, but a Covid case prevented that.
    Andoya - located near Narvik - is:
    • a long-time sounding rocket range used by European and American space agencies since the 60s.
    • a military range used for missile tests by virtually all of NATO.
    • homebase of 333 Sq of the Norwegian Air Force with P-3C (slated to be moved from the islands to a nearby base on the coast though)
    • (since 2018) a spaceport, with planned satellite launches by two German private companies, one of which just leased a launch pad there for the next 20 years.
    NGS was last trained by the Bundeswehr in the late 70s to my knowledge. It used to be regular up to that point in particular for the destroyers, using the Cape Wrath range in Scotland. Fell out of use when the Navy switched over to missile-bearing ships, in particular when the Fletchers were retired.

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    • #92
      So reviewing this....was kind of surprised to see no VLS.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
        So reviewing this....was kind of surprised to see no VLS.
        For Sachsen? They ordered one in 2019, and coming from a foreign navy the order doesn't have priority with Lockheed-Martin. So they're basically getting the next "free" one off the regular assembly line that fits into Sachsen's yard cycle.


        Attached: F219 Sachsen and sister ship F220 Hamburg on exercise last month, before Hamburg headed off to MFE21 and from there now on to Formidable Shield 2021.
        Attached Files

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        • #94
          Will it go in the foredeck just forward of the bridge?
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • #95
            Yes, in the position forward of the bridge covered by a large metal plate in this picture:
            Originally posted by kato View Post
            .Click image for larger version Name:	sachsen.jpg Views:	0 Size:	85.6 KB ID:	1572788

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            • #96
              I assume it can handle the standard NATO loadout when installed....Standard missiles, ASROCs, ESSM, etc.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • #97
                The default carried layout for the VLS on F124 frigates is 24 SM-2 Block IIIA and 32 ESSM Block 1 - plus 42 RAM Block 1A HAS in separate launchers with additional reloads carried.

                Upgrades are planned for ESSM in 2024 to Block 2 (new seeker) and RAM in 2023 to Block 2B (new rocket motor for longer range) - the RAM launchers will probably be modified in the same yard time when the VLS is mounted. The SM-2 will stay as-is until the ships are retired in the 2030s.

                VL ASROC (RUM-139) is not a "standard NATO layout" - the only navies that use it at all worldwide are the USN and the JMSDF. The MU90 torpedoes carried onboard German frigates can be dialed to an economic speed setting where they basically have the same range as VL ASROC.


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                • #98

                  F126 (former MKS180) is having its design a bit more refined.

                  And that means it has grown. Again.

                  Dimensions : 166m length, 21m beam, 6m draught
                  Displacement : 9,900 tons

                  And yes, for a comparison that frigate size-wise is thus closer to a Ticonderoga cruiser than to a Arleigh Burke destroyer...

                  Hull : Ice Class 1C/E1 (40cm)
                  Propulsion : CODLAD, 4 gensets for 32 MW + PTO engines; cruise speed 18 knots, top speed 26+ knots
                  Endurance : 2 years deployment, 21 days between resupply (as F125)
                  Accomodation : 114 core crew + 84 mission-depending

                  Manning level refined to that exact number based on F125 evaluation.

                  Electronics fit:
                  • Radar : Basically F125 (TRS-4D NR) with an added APAR Mk2 from F124 for missile tracking and up/downlink.
                  • Sonar : LFTAS in carried ASW module, no hull-mounted sonar.
                  • EO : Thales Mirador + Thales Gatekeeper (mix of F125 and K130 there)
                  • EW : Rohde & Schwarz KORA 40 (not sure on details there, F125 carries KORA 18)
                  • CMS : Tacticos Block 2.
                  Carried subsystems : 2 Sea Lion (NH90) + 2 Sea Falcon (Skeldar V200 VTOL UAV) + 2 RHIB on davits (Buster from F125, updated) + 1 boat in rear ramp (Buster or similar-sized planned proper combat boat for SOF)

                  Armament, Missile : 64 ESSM Block 2 in VLS + 42 RAM Block 2B in two launchers + 8 Kongsberg NSM Block 1
                  Armament, Gun : 127mm Vulcano + 27mm SeaSnake + .50cal Leonardo RWS (like F125)

                  NSM a bit oddly is placed behind the rear superstructure angled forward, more reminiscent of Soviet designs. Presumably because the usual midship location is kept clear for a flexible mission module. Block 1 explicitly stated for whatever reason.

                  Planned timeline:
                  • Preliminary Design Review : end of 2021
                  • Critical Design Review : Spring 2022
                  • Production Start : 2023
                  • Keel-Laying : 2024
                  • Sea Trials First of Class : 2026
                  • Delivery First of Class : 2028
                  • Production further units : circa annually 2029 to 2032
                  Construction Planning for the "stone ship" for F126 (i.e. the land training copy of all systems) will start this year.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Since parliament signed off on the 2.1 billion Euro budget for it yesterday the Bundeswehr signed a contract for three new "fleet service boats" with Lürssen today.

                    The new Type 424 ships will be 130m long and commission in 2027, replacing current 83m-long Type 423 ships. And that's presumably about all the information we'll ever get on them within the next 60-70 years.

                    Except they do at least throw us a little nugget:

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Designskizze.jpg Views:	0 Size:	133.6 KB ID:	1574120

                    For clarity, it's about the ELINT ships that we've been unofficially parking off the coasts of Syria and Libya for the past decade for various reasons soaking up data, and that previously operated similarly against Yugoslavia for presumably around 6-7 years before directly supporting the allied air operations in '99.

                    While the new ships will be a clean-sheet design certain constraints still apply. One of these is that one can assume that the ships will be equivalent to a current AAW frigate in sensor and electronic warfare capability, like their predecessors. Another one is that they will likely not carry fixed armament in order to enable missions without telling parliament about it.

                    P.S. Based on the sketch i wouldn't be too surprised if the new ships displace anywhere from 5,000 up to 7,500 tons depending on exact box factor and draught.
                    Last edited by kato; 24 Jun 21,, 17:04.

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                    • Originally posted by kato View Post
                      The three ships were commissioned last year.

                      First one has now received its weapons modifications over the last couple weeks at Fassmer:

                      Click image for larger version Name:	dueben.jpg Views:	0 Size:	144.0 KB ID:	1566051

                      57mm Bofors gun on the foredeck, two pintle mounts for .50 cal MGs on the bridge wings.

                      First German Coastguard ships to be armed since the Federal Borderguard became the Federal Police in 1997. The other two ships are in active service and will receive their weapons outfit sometime next year.

                      The ships are slightly enlarged, extremely automated versions of the OPV80 patrol ships sold by Fassmer to the Colombian and Chilean navies; the Colombian and Chilean ships are armed much the same, using a 40mm Bofors gun on the foredeck. In German service they run with a crew of 14.
                      The Federal Ministry of the Interior used the Corona stimulus package to buy a fourth ship of the Potsdam class earlier this year, to be delivered mid-2023. The ship will be armed like the other ones.

                      Comment


                      • Time to do a little round-up of recent procurement for the Navy.

                        In late June the budget committee and defense committee cleared a total of 19 billion Euro procurement for the Bundeswehr. Since we're having elections in September the next similar round will be well into the future, probably no earlier than mid next year.

                        For the Navy this entailed:
                        • two U212CD submarines within a joint procurement with Norway.
                          • U212CD is significantly larger and more capable than the current U212A.
                          • With the two new ones the Bundeswehr hits its target number of 8 submarines, although they basically already need to start thinking on how/when to replace the first four U212A.
                        • three Type 424 ELINT ships will replace the current Type 423 Oste class.
                          • the new ships are planned to be frigate-sized, rather than the corvette-sized ships they replace. All details on it are classified of course.
                          • The Oste class in the last 10-15 years primarily performed strategic reconnaissance missions, in particular against Syria and Libya. The new ships will likely be laid out for similar missions with a modern electronics fit.
                        • two Type 707 fleet tankers will replce the Type 704 fleet tankers.
                          • like the other ships these will be significantly larger than the ones they replace, planned at 20,000 tons.
                          • these tankers are primarily built for NATO deployments, as the default supply vessel for SNMG1 - like their predecessors.
                        • the four F123 frigates will receive a limited MLU between now and 2030.
                          • the MLU will equip the ships with a new CMS (Saab 9LV) and new radars (also all Saab)
                          • other shortcomings - such as the hangars not being suitable for NH90 and the ships therefore being without helos once Sea Lynx is retired - are not addressed in the MLU.
                          • The upgrade - occuring in parallel to F126 procurement - indicates that the frigates are planned to be used a bit longer after 2030. By then they will be 36-38 years old.
                        • two new multipurpose boats will be procured for WTD71
                          • basically these are 850-ton, 50m-long general civilian ships bought COTS from Fassmer. They replace a number of 40- to 50-year-old workboats.
                          • the ships will serve to support weapons trials in coastal environments, primarily supporting submarine trials and diver/UUV operations. Procurement of a larger number of bigger (65m, up to around 1750 ton) ships is planned beyond these, although not included in current rounds.
                        • A larger procurement of Naval Strike Missile (Block 1A) was also included.



                        For other news than the procurement, the F123 class frigate Bayern started her 6-month cruise to the Indopacific yesterday. It is planned to hold joint exercises in both Australia (stopping in Perth) and Japan (stopping in Tokyo), take part in embargo enforcement around North Korea and visit ports in Djibouti, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Vietnam, South Korea and China as well as Guam and Diego Garcia. No FONOPS will occur - "others do that, we don't take part in that" according to the Inspector Admiral in charge of the Navy.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	routenplanung-indo-pacific-deployment.jpg Views:	0 Size:	153.6 KB ID:	1574960
                        Last edited by kato; 03 Aug 21,, 21:41.

                        Comment


                        • For other news than the procurement, the F123 class frigate Bayern started her 6-month cruise to the Indopacific yesterday. It is planned to hold joint exercises in both Australia (stopping in Perth) and Japan (stopping in Tokyo), take part in embargo enforcement around North Korea and visit ports in Djibouti, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Vietnam, South Korea and China as well as Guam and Diego Garcia. No FONOPS will occur - "others do that, we don't take part in that" according to the Inspector Admiral in charge of the Navy.
                          Been following it's deployment on Twitter.

                          Pretty good updates update on its activities.

                          And as for FONOPS...the 7th Fleet has pretty big boots doing that on a regular basis.
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                            And as for FONOPS...the 7th Fleet has pretty big boots doing that on a regular basis.
                            The Chinese took one look at that map above, noted that it explicitly marked out the South China Sea and that that one arrow is suspiciously close to the Spratleys - and proceeded to supply the crew ... via social media ... with an 11-page text document detailing "The Facts about the South China Sea and China's Position". In German.

                            Don't think they do that for other navies, at least not that publicly.

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                            • The three F124 AAW frigates will have their SMART-L long-range radar replaced by TRS-4D/LR ROT (rotator) from Hensoldt in their next major yard time between 2024 and 2028. A fourth system will be installed at Naval Technology School Parow in 2023 already. Besides training this land system will also be used for testing adjustments before deployment on the ships.

                              Despite the name "TRS-4D/LR" is not hardware-related to the "TRS-4D" G-band radar by the same company (which is mounted on F125, F126, 2nd batch K130, LCS 17+...), but instead is probably an adapted, downsized Elta EL/M2080 Green Pine S-band radar with TRS-4D electronics in the backend - Hensoldt and IAI cooperate on long-range radars and proposed such an integration in December last year.

                              TRS-4D/LR is advertised with 400 km instrumented range endoatmospheric and 2000 km range exoatmospheric. The purpose is specifically BMD. The regular TRS-4D in rotating or fixed-panel variants has an instrumented range of 250 km.

                              The current SMART-L PESA radar is considered obsolescent in the German Navy and thus will not be upgraded unlike in other navies, such as the Netherlands with "SMART-L MM" enabling it for BMD.

                              With regard to the land site, it should be noted that Parow is located only 250 km west of the Aegis Ashore site in Redzikowo with considerable overlap (read: it's pretty much a second sensor site for the SM-3 battery at Redzikowo). It is also conveniently located 600 km from the current GESTRA orbital surveillance radar site (with similar, somewhat better range) for which it has been proposed a 300 km spacing of units should be considered for optimized triangulation on targets...

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                              • Damen has added some minimal specs for F126 on their website in their product catalogue

                                Click image for larger version

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                                The 10550 tons displacement is somewhat notable.

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