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German Navy Changes

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  • #46
    Various tidbits:
    • The Saterland-Ramsloh VLF facility, used for communications with dived submarines (at 23.4 kHz), will be modernized for 56 million Euro between 2017 and 2020. The facility is used by the joint German-Polish submarine operating authority. The two antenna fields of the site will provide alternating continuous communications throughout the modification works.
    • The closed tender for the five additional K130 has been announced; it is not up for bidding but will be a direct order of a second batch "with modifications where necessary".
    • The three F124 will, for BMD purposes, be upgraded with new MOTS radar systems before ca 2025. One possible MOTS solution would be joint procurement of Smart-L ECF radars with the Netherlands, who have already ordered them for their frigates. The only real competitor would be Hensoldt (currently Airbus) with something TRS-4D derived. It is considered highly unlikely a contract for this would be signed before the federal elections next autumn though, so this is a bit up in the air.
    • Along with the three new OPVs the Federal Police has also ordered three additional new Super Pumas; they're already operating a fleet of 19 of them. The three additional ones are procured for "SAR at sea and police duties", i.e. pretty much implicitly for the new OPVs.


    • #47
      Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
      1956 When West Germany joined NATO

      Before that they had the German Mine Sweeping Administration
      interesting reading thanks


      • #48
        Due to a little industry deal with Norway, the Navy will switch its Standard Anti-Ship/Land-Attack Missile programme from RBS-15 over to NSM - and like with RBS-15 not the current model but an upgraded version. Beginning with MKS180 will be retrofitted to all frigates.


        • #49
          Npr ....

          Originally posted by kato View Post
          Due to a little industry deal with Norway, the Navy will switch its Standard Anti-Ship/Land-Attack Missile programme from RBS-15 over to NSM - and like with RBS-15 not the current model but an upgraded version. Beginning with MKS180 will be retrofitted to all frigates.
          I enjoyed listening to Germany's Defense Minister on NPR as she acknowledged the developing change in local political groups in Germany. I.e., the small radical groups becoming more mainstream.

          The upcoming elections and the growing interests in national defense seem to be a main stay of this discussion. It was all the more interesting how the interviewer brought up " the little industry deal with Norway"..... events continue as they have before with thread followers closely monitoring world affairs on the WAB.

          KEEP the GOOD stuff coming !


          • #50
            The Seebataillon is going to get some new boats; currently talks are about initially 6-8 small combat boats. The intention is to move this to full definition and procurement start before the September general election.

            The Navy has in particular looked at how Swedish and Finnish navy infantry forces use their boats in this regard (CB90 and Jurmo aka Watercat M12), and has apparently decided to settle that as the lower end for possible procurement - with the upper end in the region of the USN's Mark V SOC. Meaning boats in the 17-25m size category that can transport some infantry. There will likely be some smaller German shipyards bidding for this too.

            Intended use of the boats is for both independent operations (patrol, intercept, insertion) as well as deployment from the LCVP davits of Karel Doorman for overseas use under the German/Dutch joint use of the amphibious ship. The boats would replace RHIBs currently in use. Other than those the Seebataillon also has a pair of large LCUs left over from a larger procurement order in the 60s that are used for amphibious training. During BALTOPS maneuvers German crews got Swedish CB90s on loan for testing, the Dutch Marines have hosted Swedish units with CB90s on their amphibs before on deployment to EUFOR Atalanta.


            The sail training ship Gorch Fock (II) is currently in the yard for longer repairs under a 75 million euro contract in order to prolong her service life to 2030. Gorch Fock should sail again in 2018.

            To make up for the shortfall the navy is currently trying to charter the Romanian Navy's sail training ship Mircea for a summer cruise this year, a virtual sister ship of Gorch Fock. The other two sister ships are USCGC Eagle and the Portuguese Navy's Sagres. The Romanian ship has some differences though, being purpose-built to the same design for the Romanian Navy in 1938: Gorch Fock is considerably longer (89 to 74 m, 2000 to 1500t displacement) and also has stronger diesel auxiliary propulsion.
            During the last major overhaul of Gorch Fock in 2000 the Navy chartered HNoMS Staatsraad Lehmkuhl for the same purpose; Mircea will likely sail with a Romanian core crew, like Staatsraad Lehmkuhl did with a Norwegian core crew.


            • #51
              Pretty much a change:

              The Good Hope maneuver series is taking place in German waters for the first time. Good Hope is a bilateral maneuver series between Germany and South Africa usually taking place around the Cape of Good Hope; it's currently in its seventh iteration.

              The Good Hope series was originally primarily used as a symmetric warfare exercise, and presented the largest maneuvers Germany participated in outside NATO - running up to five weeks. Typical scenario was for a group of frigates to defend itself and some auxiliaries and other ships against a combined air and submarine attack (using German Tornados expending the last couple dozen Kormoran 2 missiles and South-African Type 209 SSKs), also involving some surface attacks both incoming and outgoing as the maneuver progressed. As a somewhat special occasion all fired missiles and guns in these maneuvers were live-fire. The German Navy typically integrated the maneuver into its EAV training cruise that'd take three to four ships on a five-month cruise either once around Africa or across the South Atlantic a couple times.

              Good Hope VII this year began on February 24th, only runs for two weeks, and involves a South African frigate joining a couple German ships in the Baltic Sea. It will also involve 3D defense of a combined task group, although given the traffic density in the Baltic it won't involve any live fire. Focus this year is on damage control, the scenario will also involve terrorist attacks with suicide boats as well as infantry of the German Seebataillon and the South-African Maritime Reaction Squadron performing boarding exercises. The South African frigate Amatola integrates this into a 3-month European tour in which it also took part in BOST (Basic Operational Sea Training) with the Royal Navy last month, and will include port visits to various West-African countries on the way back.

              The reason why Good Hope VII does not take place in South Africa is because Germany is not fielding a EAV training unit since last year due to all ships being otherwise detained. Previously the EAV formed the ready reserve of the German Navy, a task group at sea with live weapons that could be transferred to real missions with 10 days notice (... to switch out the cadets onboard). Cadets - about 200 per year - instead since the beginning of 2016 only serve a shipboard internship of around six weeks on deployed units mostly during Operation Sophia (this was done separately before as well). This also involves foreign units, e.g. there were 19 German cadets joining 37 British cadets onboard HMS Ocean deployed to the Persian Gulf during January and February.

              Technically Good Hope VII could have been made bigger. There's concurrently another non-NATO bilateral maneuver with Sweden a bit further northeast.


              • #52
                Originally posted by kato View Post
                MKS 180
                Let's compare that post from 2012 with currently envisioned stats.
                • Planned units: 6 yes
                • Displacement: up to 5000 tons -> 8500-9000 tons, length 150-160m, width 20m
                • Accomodation: ca 210 including 70 troops -> ca 180 including 80 troops and mission module personnel
                • Aircraft: 1 medium/large helicopter (max 15t) w/ AShM plus 2 VTOL UAVs -> two medium/large helicopters or one helicopter plus two UAVs
                • Boats: 2 Fassmer 10m RHIBs (same as F125) yes
                • Top speed: 26 knots official -> 26 knots top speed, 11.5 knots dieselelectric only
                • Cruising speed: 18 knots in sea state 4 yes
                • Range: 4,000 nm at 18 knots yes
                • Mission endurance: 24 months w/ 57% sea days yes
                • Tactical endurance: 21 days at sea w/o resupply yes
                • Yard interval: 60 months -> 68 months

                • ASuW suite: 1 76mm OTO, ffbnw 4 medium/heavy AShM -> 1 127mm OTO, 8 NSM-followon anti-ship/land-attack missiles yet to be developed
                • AAW suite: 16-cell Mk41 VLS with minimum 32 ESSM Block 2 embarked
                • Self-defense suite: 2 21-cell RAM Block II, 2 27mm MLG, 2 MASS decoy launchers yes
                • Close-defense suite: multiple armoured, NVG-capable weapon stands for manually operated .50cal MGs and 40mm AGLs, snipers and MANPADS/ATGM crews -> cancelled, likely multiple Hitrole-NT .50cal RWS

                Also, there will be a flexible mission deck, with the following currently planned packages: -> two flexible mission decks carrying two modules of the following types:
                • Tactical SIGINT / electronic warfare -> no longer talked about... publicly
                • ASW w/ towed VDS
                • MCM w/ minehunting drones
                • diver support (diver chamber)
                • MIO module with arrest cells
                • Humanitarian assistance module (possible option)
                • Taskforce Command module (possible option)

                Planned introduction sometime between 2019 and 2022. -> 2023 to late 2020s

                Navy is pushing for a contract as soon as possible, but likely won't get one before the September election.
                Last edited by kato; 04 Mar 17,, 22:39.


                • #53

                  Saw an article, der Spiegel, talking about the terrible state of the German Armed Forces. What's up? Truth? Distraction? Underfunded? Undermanned? Under equiped?


                  • #54
                    Media badmouthing the military. Spiegel's been doing it quite famously for 55 years now ;-)

                    As a list:
                    • There are some undermanning and recruitment problems, mostly stemming from the pretty damn good state of the economy - that's in the region of at most 1-2% of posts not being able to be filled though. There's a number of recruitment initiatives working on this, as well as the possible stopgap solution of further extending contracts of selected serving soldiers (currently planned for 2023). One current problem is recently introduced EU-level legislation on the amount of allowable work-time (mostly mandates that overtime has to be compensated with vacations), but budget planning is onto that by now. The Navy is affected in a particular way in this regard because exceptions to such overtime rules only count while "at sea", mostly resulting in a requirement for additional landside housing at bases and some security personnel.
                    • Funding isn't a problem. Well, it is a problem if you ask the right people, but that's more because even if you come up with the exact demanded budget and give them a billion on top they'll always be able to still pull some "urgent requirement" for another two billion. Going by funding vs manpower, the German military spends the second-most in Europe per soldier behind France, and if you subtract the nukes you come up with the same. That isn't with everyone in some small margin btw, half the EU member countries are grouped at the same level (the same as average) while Germany spends 50% more and France 60% more per soldier. If we applied the 2% GDP rule - and if the current MoD would stay in office we would do that, she has a 130 billion (!) nice-to-have shopping list - and kept the military at current projected growth (to 200k by 2024, a 10% expansion from current) we'd be spending about 20% more per soldier than the USA does right now.
                    • Under-equipped: In some sense. That's mostly a planning problem though; in particular the privatization and outsourcing that has been going on for the last decade in combination with "usage optimization" in the same regard has led to serious equipment supply and readiness problems. The Navy pretty much isn't affected in this regard btw, that mostly hits the army. Nominally there were steps announced to address this - two years ago - but there hasn't really been much change in this regard.


                    • #55
                      Thank you, Kato, appreciate it.


                      • #56

                        This chart shows the defence funding levels of each nation in the EU-27, as spending relative to manpower.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        • the numbers are not all that definitive but show a broad direction in which this is going.
                        • the USA for comparison would be at about 8.7 on this chart, the UK offhand - haven't calculated it - somewhere around 7.0 to 7.3. Russia by official budget is somewhere around 3.9, China at around 5.3.
                        • most EU-27 member states run between 3.0 and 4.0 - marked in chart
                        • there's a definite "lead group" of France (6.4), Poland (6.2) and Germany (6.0) followed by a second string of the Netherlands (5.1), Belgium (5.1), Portugal (4.7) and the Czech Republic (4.6).
                        • of the nine countries below the 3.0 line four are exactly those among the EU-27 that employ conscription (Finland, Austria, Greece and Cyprus) - marked in chart
                        • Malta simply doesn't put any stock in defense, considering itself neutral and virtually unarmed (... while having 0.5% of the population in the military), and is sort of a special case.
                        • Bulgaria's situation is quite a bit more worrying, and mostly has to do with their oversized military that at 0.65% of the population has a size that compares more to those with conscription than to professional armies.
                        • value for the EU-27 is 4.0 overall; average value between states is 3.6 by numbers and 4.8 by population.
                        Last edited by kato; 11 Mar 17,, 11:13.


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by kato View Post
                          There's concurrently another non-NATO bilateral maneuver with Sweden a bit further northeast.
                          Said maneuver consisted - as its highlight - of a scenario in which a German ship was supposed to enter Swedish waters and wreak havoc, with the Swedish Navy in a defensive position trying to find and intercept the interloper; mission target for the "havoc" part was to engage at least two Swedish corvettes. The Echo corvette crew used the K130 corvette Ludwigshafen to systematically map out the positions of Swedish stealth corvettes - and regular corvettes - while hiding itself in dense traffic, then successfully sunk them using four simulated RBS-15 missiles before escaping unnoticed. The Swedes found her two hours later.

                          The maneuver is part of an increasing cooperation of the German 1st Corvette Squadron and the Swedish 31st Corvette Squadron.

                          Originally posted by kato View Post
                          Technically Good Hope VII could have been made bigger.
                          Good Hope VII involved, according to South African sources, the German F122 frigates Augsburg and Lübeck (last two remaining, third is up for sale to scrappers right now), K130 corvette Ludwigshafen (same as in the Swedish maneuver, basically shifted between both), the Berlin-class AOR Bonn, and the two Meko A200 corvettes Amatola (South Africa) and El Moudamir (Algeria - *ahem*) - hence at least 6 ships. Then again the same reports - by the South African Navy - manage to mistake the frigate Lübeck for the AOR Bonn in image descriptions...


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by kato View Post
                            To make up for the shortfall the navy is currently trying to charter the Romanian Navy's sail training ship Mircea for a summer cruise this year, a virtual sister ship of Gorch Fock.
                            First cadet cruise on Mircea set sail a week ago on August 11th. The core crew is Mircea's Romanian crew plus ten trainers from Gorch Fock and a three-person medical team that speaks both German and Romanian.

                            It's a joint cruise, with 55 German and 30 Romanian cadets - and apparently some Bulgarians and Chinese (!) too, together about 20.

                            Since the capacity of Mircea this way is too low to hold all German cadets for their standard cruise, they'll switch out the cadets after four weeks during a port visit in Palma de Mallorca. The second cadet group of another 55 will then sail the ship from there to the Romanian port of Constanta in the Black Sea. Since Mircea doesn't hold up to German safety standards some standard operations trained on Gorch Fock will be left out, for example they won't have to manually rig the sails. The Germans are also bringing their own life vests...

                            Gorch Fock meanwhile is drydocked both getting 80% of her outside planking replaced and her steel decks refurbished.


                            • #59
                              Second batch of K130 corvettes is being switched to TRS-4D radars.


                              • #60
                                According to Flotilla Admiral Reineke - in command of equipment planning for the Navy - the following systems and developments are planned for the next decade:
                                • joint development of an amphibious warfare capability together with the Netherlands with vision (by him) to operate up to four LPD or LHA together by the end of the 2020s and (actual plans for) intermediate co-use of Dutch amphibs by both nations
                                • upgrading the F124 with new BMD radars by 2024
                                • replacement for the two oilers that mostly see use as auxiliaries for NATO SNMG (though that's been announced for like a decade now...)
                                • 11 new platforms for mine countermeasures (and presumably, going by german standards, mine warfare)
                                • replacement for the A404 tenders is under development, focus towards support for corvettes and mine warfare units although possibly also a line of submarine tenders including in a possible international context planned (due to "lack of such units among partner nations")
                                • cooperation with Denmark on "underwater detection", read updating the little-known underwater acoustic detection network that controls naval movement in the Western Baltic and its North Sea approaches
                                • replacement for Sea Lynx with planned operational capability by 2025.
                                • establishing a Baltic Maritime Component Command for NATO.
                                • establishing a multinational training center for naval mine warfare in Kiel.