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  • India versus Americans Acticle

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20051208.aspx

    "December 8, 2005: There have been several joint training exercises held recently between the U.S. Air Force and the Indian Air Force. The Indians have used their new, Russian designed, Su-30s (an improved model of the Su-27, which is the Russian answer to the U.S. F-15). The Indians have gone up against American F-15s and F-16s. The Indian pilots have been quite successful in these mock dogfights, and very eager to let everyone know about it.

    What isnít usually included in these battle descriptions is the fact that the ground rules deliberately prevented the American pilots from winning every engagement. These days, American pilots use close in dog fighting (with heat seeking Sidewinder missiles) as a fall back tactic. The main air-to-air weapon of the U.S. Air Force is now the long range (over 50 kilometers) AMRAAM missile, and superior radar equipment. This is nothing new, the United States has been working on this tactic for nearly half a century, and in the last decade, they have finally gotten missiles, radars, tactics and pilots able to make it work consistently. For a long time, pilots were not enthusiastic about BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements, and the early missiles (the AIM-7 Sparrow) were not all that accurate. But after decades of trying, they finally have a winning combination with the AMRAAM and a new generation of radars and electronic gear. So when American fighter pilots go train with foreign air forces, they have to take their BVR tactics off the table, since under those conditions, the ďenemyĒ force would not have much of a chance.

    But thereís also the security aspect. Other air forces also have BVR missiles (usually Russian), and the American pilots donít want to give away the electronic tricks and tactics they would use to defeat the Russian missiles, and ensure that AMRAAM would succeed. So the American pilots have to fall back on the older dog fighting tactics, which many foreign fighter pilots are good at (since they donít train much, if at all, with BVR missiles.) For the Indian Air Force, such training exercises are good because it allows them to train against F-16s (which their long time foe, Pakistan, has). For the American pilots, they get to operate against Su-30s (which China has.) For all concerned, itís a chance to fight against pilots from a different culture, who may use different, and sometimes superior, tactics and methods."

  • #2
    I work with a guy here that knows the whole story about this exercise. I know, I always seem to know the guy who did...whatever. But it's true: the Air Force captain that wrote the RoE for that Alaskan exercise sits right next to me. And he has LOTS to say about this topic.

    1. The Indians brought their 'A' game, and everybody was a sh!t-hot stick actuator: senior, high-time guys.

    2. They flew against the Americans that happened to be scheduled to fly: guys a year out of UPT, lieutenants, captains, the general membership of that squadron's roster, with no ringers.

    3. The Indians were EXCELLENT stick-and-rudder guys, and it must be admitted that for whatever reasons, they flew VERY well, and showed our guys that fighter pilots do not necessarily have to be from Nellis or Miramar; they may be from a place with too many or not enough vowels.

    4. After the whining started up from the American fighter chimps that had just gotten a rude awakening, the American Air Force general in charge of it told 'em all to go radio silent and LEARN from it, instead of letting bruised egos make 'em justify to each other why they had just flown to a tied score with a Brand X air force, and LEARN from the experience. You didn't have the ability to fire whole bunches of AMRAAMs and then just fly back to the O'Club after winning the war single-handedly? You didn't have all the AWACS all the time? You didn't have electronic dominance of the enemy's comms and radars? TOUGH! Find out how good at BFM they are; find out how good YOU are. After all, that was the entire point of the whole dam' exercise, not so they could hangar-fly with the Barstoolers and talk about how dam' COOL they are, after the zillionth straight 'win'. NOTHING TEACHES BETTER LESSONS THAN DOING WORSE ON A FAIR TEST THAN YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE CAPABLE OF.

    5. The Indians did not 'win', but they did WAY better than the Americans expected. The Americans did not 'lose', but they had a lot to learn from an air force that, until then, they had not given much respect to. I bet nobody in the American fighter community makes the mistake of underestimating their opponents for a long time.

    And that's a VERY Good Thing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bluesman
      I work with a guy here that knows the whole story about this exercise. I know, I always seem to know the guy who did...whatever. But it's true: the Air Force captain that wrote the RoE for that Alaskan exercise sits right next to me. And he has LOTS to say about this topic.

      1. The Indians brought their 'A' game, and everybody was a sh!t-hot stick actuator: senior, high-time guys.

      2. They flew against the Americans that happened to be scheduled to fly: guys a year out of UPT, lieutenants, captains, the general membership of that squadron's roster, with no ringers.

      3. The Indians were EXCELLENT stick-and-rudder guys, and it must be admitted that for whatever reasons, they flew VERY well, and showed our guys that fighter pilots do not necessarily have to be from Nellis or Miramar; they may be from a place with too many or not enough vowels.

      4. After the whining started up from the American fighter chimps that had just gotten a rude awakening, the American Air Force general in charge of it told 'em all to go radio silent and LEARN from it, instead of letting bruised egos make 'em justify to each other why they had just flown to a tied score with a Brand X air force, and LEARN from the experience. You didn't have the ability to fire whole bunches of AMRAAMs and then just fly back to the O'Club after winning the war single-handedly? You didn't have all the AWACS all the time? You didn't have electronic dominance of the enemy's comms and radars? TOUGH! Find out how good at BFM they are; find out how good YOU are. After all, that was the entire point of the whole dam' exercise, not so they could hangar-fly with the Barstoolers and talk about how dam' COOL they are, after the zillionth straight 'win'. NOTHING TEACHES BETTER LESSONS THAN DOING WORSE ON A FAIR TEST THAN YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE CAPABLE OF.

      5. The Indians did not 'win', but they did WAY better than the Americans expected. The Americans did not 'lose', but they had a lot to learn from an air force that, until then, they had not given much respect to. I bet nobody in the American fighter community makes the mistake of underestimating their opponents for a long time.

      And that's a VERY Good Thing.
      A fair and Honest assessment Bluesman. Thank you.
      Usually it is tough to get info on these exercises unless you are on the "inside" like yourself.
      CAn you assess the Indian Airforce for the benefit of the boarders here. I for one would be keenly interested in your analysis. I would also like to know how you would rank them globally.
      "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time. "

      "Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed."

      Sir Winston Churchill

      Comment


      • #4
        mock air combat

        I was surpeised to read that a bunch of indian air force pilots flying mirage 2000s, mig-27s,su-30s, and even mig-21s beat us pilots flying f-15s and f-16s during air combat exercises in alaska. something like a 3-to-1 advantage was given to the indian pilots,so they were able to deal with the USAF. I don't see how this type of training is going to help indias pilots when in the future they may have to face PAF pilots in real air combat. Indias air force may also be at a disadvantage because the US air force could give information to the PAF about the strenghts or weakness' of indian air force piolts and planes. a more realistic exercise for the indian air force would have been to conduct combat training with Israeli pilots and planes(that is if the Israelis agree to such exercises). This way indian pilots can learn air combat tactics from the best air force in the world(israeli air force), rather than learning from the 2nd best air force in the world(US air force)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mich
          I was surpeised to read that a bunch of indian air force pilots flying mirage 2000s, mig-27s,su-30s, and even mig-21s beat us pilots flying f-15s and f-16s during air combat exercises in alaska.
          They have missiles and yeah they can shoot. So scoot!

          something like a 3-to-1 advantage was given to the indian pilots,so they were able to deal with the USAF.
          And where did you read that?? At COPE 2006, it was mix-n-match and no advantage was given to either sides. Get your facts straight. It helps, if you can read Bluesman's comments, he is in USAF.

          I don't see how this type of training is going to help indias pilots when in the future they may have to face PAF pilots in real air combat.
          and what would be the disadvantage?? Infact USAF can help IAF hone this BVR skills, network centric warfare incld use of AWACS.

          Indias air force may also be at a disadvantage because the US air force could give information to the PAF about the strenghts or weakness' of indian air force piolts and planes.
          BS. America can also give info regarding PAF planes, coz they are supplying it. Infact I guess you keep your f*ked up conspiracy theories to you, coz IAF knows what they want to do.

          a more realistic exercise for the indian air force would have been to conduct combat training with Israeli pilots and planes(that is if the Israelis agree to such exercises).
          IAF has conducted visits to IsAF and they do know about each other.

          This way indian pilots can learn air combat tactics from the best air force in the world(israeli air force), rather than learning from the 2nd best air force in the world(US air force)
          I'll leave it to Bluesman to answer that part, Heck, I think he may not even answer it, as you are really not worth the effort.

          I guess it'll help you in the long run if you can read the posts in the forum before posting BS.
          A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

          Comment


          • #6
            At COPE 2006, it was mix-n-match and no advantage was given to either sides.
            I think he was talking of cope 2004 gwalior.
            Hala Madrid!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jay
              They have missiles and yeah they can shoot. So scoot!


              And where did you read that?? At COPE 2006, it was mix-n-match and no advantage was given to either sides. Get your facts straight. It helps, if you can read Bluesman's comments, he is in USAF.


              and what would be the disadvantage?? Infact USAF can help IAF hone this BVR skills, network centric warfare incld use of AWACS.


              BS. America can also give info regarding PAF planes, coz they are supplying it. Infact I guess you keep your f*ked up conspiracy theories to you, coz IAF knows what they want to do.


              IAF has conducted visits to IsAF and they do know about each other.


              I'll leave it to Bluesman to answer that part, Heck, I think he may not even answer it, as you are really not worth the effort.

              I guess it'll help you in the long run if you can read the posts in the forum before posting BS.

              Ooh!! Cool it down a little bit Jay.

              Originally posted by Monk
              A fair and Honest assessment Bluesman. Thank you.
              Usually it is tough to get info on these exercises unless you are on the "inside" like yourself.
              CAn you assess the Indian Airforce for the benefit of the boarders here. I for one would be keenly interested in your analysis. I would also like to know how you would rank them globally.
              No many insider from IAF on WAB, eh?

              Still I would like to add, USAF if indeed better than the IAF all factors included.

              But, IAF would kick any other Air Force's butt, anytime, anywhere.

              I wonder how IAF compares to Russian AF even when plenty of hardware in IAF's inventory is Russian.
              Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Maximus
                But, IAF would kick any other Air Force's butt, anytime, anywhere.
                The Israelis chickened out in 73 when the Soviets threatened intervention. Get off the Israeli shtick. They're good but they're not that good. Admittingly, Canada enjoyed a few advantages that the Israelis would not have enjoyed, namely distance and before the CF-18s, nuke tipped AAMs and SAMs, but the Canadians were expected and capable of stopping a Soviet 1st bomber wave. The Israelis could not, not even in their wildest dreams. They simply did not have the airspace nor the numbers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                  The Israelis chickened out in 73 when the Soviets threatened intervention. Get off the Israeli shtick. They're good but they're not that good. Admittingly, Canada enjoyed a few advantages that the Israelis would not have enjoyed, namely distance and before the CF-18s, nuke tipped AAMs and SAMs, but the Canadians were expected and capable of stopping a Soviet 1st bomber wave. The Israelis could not, not even in their wildest dreams. They simply did not have the airspace nor the numbers.
                  OoE, I was refering to the Indian Air Force.

                  And I was also betting on a vague idea that what if Indian and Russian AFs came face to face.

                  Any thoughts?
                  Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Maximus
                    OoE, I was refering to the Indian Air Force.
                    My misread though please to refer the Indian AF as the InAF and the Israelis as the IsAF in the future, it cuts down on alot of confusion.

                    Originally posted by Maximus
                    And I was also betting on a vague idea that what if Indian and Russian AFs came face to face.
                    It would be the tipping of the scales rather than hammer blows for either AF because

                    1) both don't have B-52s to do carpet bombing.
                    2) both are firm believers in land forces.

                    Comment

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