US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat

[indianguy4u]

i personally think that PAF would not buy the F-16s unless they get AMRAAM, the question is which version of AMRAAM are they getting?

PAF is getting it free. They dont have money [77*40=3.08 billion US]. All they have paid was something 400 million US$ in 80's. Also they arent even getting new one AC frames.

[tphuang]

how potent the F16's will be will greatly depend on the weapons pakistan will get. Are they getting AMRAAM ??

i personally think that PAF would not buy the F-16s unless they get AMRAAM, the question is which version of AMRAAM are they getting?

[ajaybhutani]

I'm not sure about the newest block 50 that Israel is getting, but the ones PAF is getting will get its ass kicked by su-30mki for sure. Although having 75 of them would help a lot. Especially since IAF is only producing 14 mkis per year.

how potent the F16's will be will greatly depend on the weapons pakistan will get. Are they getting AMRAAM ??

[tphuang]

I don't think even blk 50+ with Amraam is going to help take on a Su 30mki ( a blk 60 may have a better chance). However, my concern lies in the fact that :

a sudden injection of 75+ a/c in 2 years will give an unnecessary boost to a force and country that has always jumped the gun and tried irresponsible moves.

it may make things more difficult for IAF since only their MKIs will be truly more capable than f16 blk 52s. The currently existent Mig29s and M2ks are definitely inferior, although not slouches by any means.

does anyone know anything about the IAF MiG29 upgrade?

Regards,
USS.

I'm not sure about the newest block 50 that Israel is getting, but the ones PAF is getting will get its ass kicked by su-30mki for sure. Although having 75 of them would help a lot. Especially since IAF is only producing 14 mkis per year.

[uss]

Hmmmmmmmm.......... right now pakistan needs some BVR missles more than anything else but it also need to increase the # of f-16's and improve their block # only if Paf F-16 are equipped with some good BVR missile then they can stand against the Su-30's and Mir-2000 of IAF in future

I don't think even blk 50+ with Amraam is going to help take on a Su 30mki ( a blk 60 may have a better chance). However, my concern lies in the fact that :

a sudden injection of 75+ a/c in 2 years will give an unnecessary boost to a force and country that has always jumped the gun and tried irresponsible moves.

it may make things more difficult for IAF since only their MKIs will be truly more capable than f16 blk 52s. The currently existent Mig29s and M2ks are definitely inferior, although not slouches by any means.

does anyone know anything about the IAF MiG29 upgrade?

Regards,
USS.

[Wing-man]

Hmmmmmmmm.......... right now pakistan needs some BVR missles more than anything else but it also need to increase the # of f-16's and improve their block # only if Paf F-16 are equipped with some good BVR missile then they can stand against the Su-30's and Mir-2000 of IAF in future

[tphuang]

This might be a cause of concern for the Indians. Obviously, getting 75 odd BVR capable a/c inducted in a couple of years would change the balance of force levels very quickly. Not necessarily in favor of PAF, but certainly making it a lot more difficult for the IAF. Perhaps this should provide impetus fot the MRCA purchase for the IAF. Last i read, induction will actually start around 2010, which would be really, really late esp. considering depleting force levels. currently only some 12 new mkis are being added per year. Not very good at all.

Regards,
USS.

MRCA induction is not until 2010? But I guess the good news is that IAF will experience quite a huge advancement in technology at the beginning of next decade with the full upgraded su-30mki and possibly LCAs.

[uss]

Date: 2/10/2005

Pakistan will buy 77 F-16 jets from the US -- which Washington would acquire from a third country -- for its Air Force after they are fitted with the state-of-the-art equipment, Islamabad's Ambassador to America Gen (Retd) Jehangir Karamat, said.

The F-16s would be acquired from a third country but the supply would be made by the US, Karamat was quoted as saying by the local daily 'The News' but the paper did not specify whether Washington was procuring used aircraft.

The upgradation and installation of equipment would be carried out by the manufacturer in the US and all the aircraft would be fitted with the sate-of-the-art equipment to meet Pakistan's requirements, he said.

Karamat said the American Government has already approved the F-16 deal with Pakistan and it would come for discussion before the US Congress in October and November.

He said besides approving the F-16 deal with Pakistan, the US would provide it 20 state-of-the-art Cobra helicopters.

Apparently allaying apprehensions over the quality of the planes as they were being "acquired" from other countries, he said there is no question about the quality and lifespan of the jets as they would be "first rate by all standards."

Pakistan had last year sought the F-16 models capable of firing medium-range air-to-air Beyond Visual Ranger (BVR), AMRAAM Missiles, which have the ability to hit a target beyond 60 km range.

Billed as fire and forget category, BVRs were considered to be most advanced missiles which Pakistan Air Force (PAF) so far did not have. Last year, the US had initially proposed to sell 24 F-16s, each costing around 40 million dollars.

As per the delivery schedule, Karamat said Pakistan would be given two F-16s by December followed by supply of 20 in next year and the rest of 55 in 2007.

The PAF, which has about 30 F-16s acquired in 1980s, is currently modernising its aged fleet by buying used French-made Mirages as well as jointly producing F-7 Thunder with China. PAF has also already procured several Mirage fighters from Libya.

About President George W Bush's plans to visit the region, Karamat said indications are that the US leader's visit to the sub-continent may materialise in February next year during which he would also come to Pakistan.

Expressing satisfaction over the defence, political, economic, trade and social sector cooperation between the US and Pakistan, he said Islamabad is closely watching the pattern of emerging close cooperation between the US and India on sharing of the civilian-nuclear technology.

He said Pakistan too has growing energy requirements and wish to acquire US nuclear power plants in future.

Pakistan wanted that any US legislation on transferring the nuclear technology should not be made country-specific. "The legislation must also open similar US cooperation with Pakistan," he said.

On the Bush Administration's crackdown on terror suspects in the US, he said Washington is deporting criminals, violators of laws and illegal immigrants. No excess with peace-loving Pakistanis or any other country's nationals have been reported, he added.

This might be a cause of concern for the Indians. Obviously, getting 75 odd BVR capable a/c inducted in a couple of years would change the balance of force levels very quickly. Not necessarily in favor of PAF, but certainly making it a lot more difficult for the IAF. Perhaps this should provide impetus fot the MRCA purchase for the IAF. Last i read, induction will actually start around 2010, which would be really, really late esp. considering depleting force levels. currently only some 12 new mkis are being added per year. Not very good at all.

Regards,
USS.

[indianguy4u]

I was talking about Chinese exports - I know there is an embargo (US and European) against the sale of defense goods to China. The quality of Chinese EXPORTS (electronic equipment and defense items) is increasing as they move further and further into a free market economy.

No doubt on that front.

[JBodnar39]

Dont mix def & white goods. There is US embargo against sale of def goods to hina

I was talking about Chinese exports - I know there is an embargo (US and European) against the sale of defense goods to China. The quality of Chinese EXPORTS (electronic equipment and defense items) is increasing as they move further and further into a free market economy.

[indianguy4u]

China's stuff is getting better and better because they are opening up their markets to free trade and competition more and more.

Dont mix def & white goods. There is US embargo against sale of def goods to hina

[JBodnar39]

Agreed

sure, that's true. China's economy is actually much better than before, but obviously it still could open up more. I'm just saying that it's possible to achieve high technical level without having a free market.

As for Jbodnar, I don't think we are disagreeing here. It's pretty clear that other countries only buy from China because they are poor or have some kind of export ban. However, I do think the quality of products coming out of China is gettin pretty good. Check the cell-phone industry. The stuff you can buy in Hong Kong/China is much better than stuff you get in North America.

China's stuff is getting better and better because they are opening up their markets to free trade and competition more and more.

[SuperFlanker]

Chinese weapons are good for hteir price range. Their weapons function to a certain extent and htey are extremly cheap. For example, a country can buy 3 JF-17s for hte price of 1 standard F-16. If i was a poor country, i would definetly be buying Chinese weapons over western weapons.

[tphuang]

Free markets will improve competitiveness and accountability.

sure, that's true. China's economy is actually much better than before, but obviously it still could open up more. I'm just saying that it's possible to achieve high technical level without having a free market.

As for Jbodnar, I don't think we are disagreeing here. It's pretty clear that other countries only buy from China because they are poor or have some kind of export ban. However, I do think the quality of products coming out of China is gettin pretty good. Check the cell-phone industry. The stuff you can buy in Hong Kong/China is much better than stuff you get in North America.

[JBodnar39]

This is wrong notion.

How is that wrong? It's true. An American factory worker makes about 40,000 or 50,000 US dollars per year and an Engineer twice that. Higher salaries and benefits (medical insurance, retirement plan, ect) means a higher priced product.
Also, in state run factories, you have less accountability and competition which equates to less innovation and less quality control. It is just a fact.

China is creeping towards free market economy and when it gets there (how long I don;t know) it will be the economic powerhouse of the world.