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  • #16
    This are some pictures of T-50 project of fifht generation fighter from Sukhoi. I found them on web so this makes not secret.... however I find it quite stupid to place fotos like this to web......

    this are the dymaic models and some concept design thoughts about fifth generation at Sukhoi
    Attached Files

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    • #17
      Wasnt mig 1.44 sold to chinese for their JXX project?

      Any more pic garry?
      Hala Madrid!!

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      • #18
        These photos are defintely fakes. They were posted in several boards. The shadows are incorrect.
        Last edited by JG73; 05 Oct 05,, 17:53.
        >Facit Omnia Voluntas<

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        • #19
          I have found another layout for the new russian super fighter. It's top secret!!!
          Attached Files
          >Facit Omnia Voluntas<

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JG73
            These photos are defintely fakes. They were posted in several boards. The shadows are incorrect.
            Don't appear to be well done fakes either the silver aircraft really gives it away.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by canoe
              Don't appear to be well done fakes either the silver aircraft really gives it away.
              Originally posted by JG73
              These photos are defintely fakes. They were posted in several boards. The shadows are incorrect.
              I can not see any problems with shadows. But don't want to argue anything about photos which I did not make.... I posted them from Russian web site

              http://paralay.narod.ru/

              there are also some other pictures of different unclear ideas.

              a pile of bricks next to the wall looks quite funny.... the workshop itself is really run down to ruins..... However MiG workshops in the center of Moscow which I visited looked even worse!!!

              ________________

              NOW BACK TO MAIN ISSUE - Is it possible for Russia to manage making 5th generation fighter much cheaper if JSF has cost $19bn on just first batch?!??!?!

              I believe it is going to be much cheaper than what US or Europeans spend on R&D. The years of low budgets made Russian's much more efficient, while stable growth of state funding in US and Europe made pushed them far from reality!!!

              Let me give my comparison of posible R&D costs in Russia and Western designers..... I guess only one thing would be common - the cost of used materials. Everytning else like machining time and quialified force would be 30-50 times cheaper than that in US or Europe with same or beter quality of results. In my estimate around half or some times up to 75% of the value in R&D is testing of samples/devices and cost of materials used in production of those samples would make around 30% of testing costs.

              Lets take 30% of costs for JSF as fixed and discount the rest 20-30 times..... we will have some vague estimation how much cheaper R&D of fifth generation fighter might be in Russia now. So Russia can make its 5th generation fighter for price of $5-6bn in current prices.

              Just to give you some illustrations on how much Russia is competitive in high tech products I give you two expamples......

              - Mi-17 costs 8 times cheaper the western alternatives but does the same or much beter job.....
              - Compare how much Rosaviakosmos invested in ISS and NASA, difference is in many times but how about results? Russian contribution to ISS cost it much less dollars that it would have cost ti NASA!!!
              Last edited by Garry; 06 Oct 05,, 09:44.

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              • #22
                Ok heres my rant about paper airplanes:
                ----
                Well I'm not going to get into a debate about the authenticity of the pictures, I'm no professional but just looking at them they don't look right and I'm likely not going to be able to prove to you in a chat forum otherwise however this isen't the first time they've been posted on the net.

                That said even if the pics were real they do not denote actual developent of an aircraft, I'll try posting a few of the models and 'paper' designs for aircraft the U.S. In some cases they actually built scale prototypes of some of them, and beleive me there are LOTS of them. But very very few made it to the full scale prototype phase.

                To the best of my knowledge the Russians have never had a full stealth aircraft make it to the prototype stage. It'd almost impossible to know how far the U.S.S.R got with that area of research, however pretty much all the non-nuclear Russian military tech that exists today is forsale to anyone with enough money.
                ----

                Ok back to the main issue:

                All that said I think they can develop a 5th gen fighter probably not until 2012-15 though. I wouldn't underestimate the cost, one thing the U.S has proven is developing stealth aircraft is extremely expensive. The other issue with the comparison of the labour costs of the JSF is that the U.S isen't developing the JSF from scratch, its borrowing alot of the technoligy from the F22 to keep the JSF development costs down to help make it a successful exporter.

                The attached pics are U.S paper planes, first time I've tried posting pics on the board so bear with me if this doesn't work.
                Last edited by canoe; 19 Dec 06,, 23:08.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JG73
                  I have found another layout for the new russian super fighter. It's top secret!!!
                  OMG, ROFL!
                  An excellent blueprint, JG73! Muhaha!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by canoe
                    Ok heres my rant about paper airplanes:
                    ----
                    1) To the best of my knowledge the Russians have never had a full stealth aircraft make it to the prototype stage. It'd almost impossible to know how far the U.S.S.R got with that area of research, however pretty much all the non-nuclear Russian military tech that exists today is forsale to anyone with enough money.
                    ----

                    2)
                    Ok back to the main issue:

                    All that said I think they can develop a 5th gen fighter probably not until 2012-15 though. I wouldn't underestimate the cost, one thing the U.S has proven is developing stealth aircraft is extremely expensive. The other issue with the comparison of the labour costs of the JSF is that the U.S isen't developing the JSF from scratch, its borrowing alot of the technoligy from the F22 to keep the JSF development costs down to help make it a successful exporter.

                    The attached pics are U.S paper planes, first time I've tried posting pics on the board so bear with me if this doesn't work.
                    1) Agreed. I have little idea about this and as far as I heard Russians are not of a great oppinion of stealth designs which cost too much of aerodynamics capabilities. In their view, detection means develop too fast to bet aerodynamics on being stealth.

                    2) Your dates 2012-15 are optimistic scenario. I doubt anything would be fielded earlier..... Regarding cost. I think that in current prices Russian design bereuas can do it many ten times cheaper. The constant state funding or R&D in US was good to keep it to high level... but was very bad for the efficiency. No significant programe in Aerospace and Defense was completed with initial budget overun less than 10% in US since 1960-es....... (jgetty, correct me if I am wrong but name that program, OK?)

                    and much can be done here to be more efficient. Again to illustate my case....

                    - Look it took $40-50mln to design and produce first batch of ANSAT helicopter to Kazan Helicopter Plant in 1997-2001...
                    http://www.kazanhelicopters.com:8080...rs/ansat/photo

                    it cost them $60mln to design it from skratch..... how much it would cost in the western deisigner to design rotorcraft like this from zero?

                    - Turning Su-27UBK to Su-30MKI cost Irkut Corproation about $350mln.... including engine, avionics, canard etc... Ho much it would cost a modernization of F-15 today as deep as MKI program was? Billions of dollars. (Jgetty what do you think?)

                    - Compare how much Longbow program cost to US? Around $1.5bn on R&D with total $7bn to convert all AH-64 to Longbow. Look. Ka-50 was turned a two seater Ka-52 for less than $30mln.... and for $1.5bn you may have both Ka-50, Mi-28N and few more helicopter programs running together.....

                    - How much did it cost to Unrainian Antonov to modernize An-124 to An-124-100 increasing its load capacity from 100 tons to 150 tons? It cost them $100mln + some unclear amount spend in USSR times. (OK this may be not a good argument)

                    - OK. Now lets see how much heavy Mi-38 cost to design..... WoW $800mln. Why so much? Because Europcopter was part of consortium and it made 2/3rd of the costs for making 1/5 of the job in the project.

                    I hope those examples support my conclusion that it is COMPLETELY WRONG use JSF costs to estimate what a 5th generation capabilities will cost Russia. It will be many times cheaper.

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                    • #25
                      the mfs fighter seems to be a copy of the F-22 except it's not quite as good. i read an article saying it would take 4 of these fighters to take a raptor down.

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