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MiG-25's as a morale breaker in times of war?

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  • MiG-25's as a morale breaker in times of war?

    I didnt know this happened in the Kargil War of 1999 India-Pakistan. Imagine telling your people everything is under control and the next minute hearing sonic booms.

    Ok the Questions (lots of them)

    How deep did the pilot go. Did he fly over lahore or some big city. Did the pilot fly straight over pakistan and take a U-turn or slow down from Mach-2 take a high-G turn (risk being hit by missiles and facing an already alerted, heavily-radared Indian border) or fly all across Pakistan enter Afghanistan, slow down, and cooly return from the Arabian sea. Also how much time would it take at mach 2.5 to cross the entire stretch of Pakistan, which I assume is 1500 kms or less than 1000 miles.

    How long can it fly at 2.5 with A/B's and the range? Can it be challenged by a F-16 with a very good A2A missile with 10,000 feet seperating them?
    Ok these are hypothetical questions but would like to know what you guys think.

    Also what are the relative costs per piece of the SR-71 and the MiG-25 Foxbats? Biggest question of all. Why couldnt a Mig 25 at 2.5 mach sustained catch an SR-71. Does the Foxbat have good A2A missiles?

    I wish the Defence minister, George "Dufus, I like trains" Fernandes would have sent 2 MiG-25's across Pakistan into Kandahar after the hijacked plane, IC 814 (India would-be Entebbe) would have safely landed, and create some booms at the airbase while dropping A/G bombs to make a statement

    One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice.

    Here's the link, (The site is pro-indian)

    http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html

    >>>>>>>>>>Air Power International

    By Peter Steinemann

    Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet).

    However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

    India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance. <<<<<<<<<<<<<
    Last edited by wipeout; 02 May 05,, 04:51. Reason: Providing more info

  • #2
    "One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice."

    A stinger missile isn't a threat to anything at 30,000 feet.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by wipeout
      I didnt know this happened in the Kargil War of 1999 India-Pakistan. Imagine telling your people everything is under control and the next minute hearing sonic booms.

      Ok the Questions (lots of them)

      How deep did the pilot go. Did he fly over lahore or some big city. Did the pilot fly straight over pakistan and take a U-turn or slow down from Mach-2 take a high-G turn (risk being hit by missiles and facing an already alerted, heavily-radared Indian border) or fly all across Pakistan enter Afghanistan, slow down, and cooly return from the Arabian sea. Also how much time would it take at mach 2.5 to cross the entire stretch of Pakistan, which I assume is 1500 kms or less than 1000 miles.

      How long can it fly at 2.5 with A/B's and the range? Can it be challenged by a F-16 with a very good A2A missile with 10,000 feet seperating them?
      Ok these are hypothetical questions but would like to know what you guys think.

      Also what are the relative costs per piece of the SR-71 and the MiG-25 Foxbats? Biggest question of all. Why couldnt a Mig 25 at 2.5 mach sustained catch an SR-71. Does the Foxbat have good A2A missiles?

      I wish the Defence minister, George "Dufus" Fernandes would have sent 2 MiG-25's across Pakistan into Kandahar and create some booms at the airbase while dropping A/G bombs to make a statement

      One last question, is the Stinger missile a threat to a MiG-25 at 30,000 feet at Mach 1.5 ready to go to Mach 2 at a moment's notice.

      Here's the link, (The site is pro-indian)

      http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html

      >>>>>>>>>>Air Power International

      By Peter Steinemann

      Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet).

      However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

      India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance. <<<<<<<<<<<<<

      i really don't understand why they aren't making many aircraft that havea ceiling of 22,000 metres or more, i mean, the engagement ceiling of the AIM-120 is 20,000 metres which makes the MiG-25, which has a ceiling of almost 25,000 metres impervious to America's most advanced BVR missile

      i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71

      i also heard that the Foxbat onec reached 110,000 feet high, incredible, they should make more heavy platforms such as these, Russia believes that the 6th generation of aircraft will be space planes cool, most likely unmanned
      for MOTHER MOLDOVA

      Comment


      • #4
        "i really don't understand why they aren't making many aircraft that havea ceiling of 22,000 metres or more"

        It's an environmental control issue. Making aircraft that operate over 60,000 feet requires a much more expensive life support system.

        "i mean, the engagement ceiling of the AIM-120 is 20,000 metres"

        Don't believe everything you read.

        "which makes the MiG-25, which has a ceiling of almost 25,000 metres impervious to America's most advanced BVR missile"

        What it's 'impervious' too is most US interceptors, not the missiles themselves. It's a kinematics issue. When you have to shoot up at a target much of the missiles energy is wasted on the climb to altitude. And the Mig-25/31 are both well within the engagement parameters of the recently retired USN AIM-54C Phoenix(100,000 foot cieling, Mach 5+ 100nm+ performance), the US Army Patriot PAC II SAM, and the USN SM-2MRIIIB SAM. The F-22 can operate well 'in excess' of 60,000 feet, so it should be quite capable of an AMRAAM Mig-25 intercept.

        "i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71"

        It's also significantly slower, significantly shorter ranged, with a significantly greater RCS, all despite being significantly newer of an aircraft.

        The SR-71 and the B-70 Valkyrie are in a class all to themselves when it comes to ultra-high performance high altitude penetrating aircraft.

        "i also heard that the Foxbat onec reached 110,000 feet high,"

        Only with a full pressure suit for the pilot, in an unarmed and stripped down aircraft...even then that claim is a bit hard to believe.

        Comment


        • #5
          RE: MiG-25's as a morale breaker in times of war?

          > wipeout
          > MiG-25's as a morale breaker in times of war?
          > Can it be challenged by a F-16 with a very good A2A missile with 10,000
          > feet seperating them?
          There is no "window" for the F-16/Slammer combination to intercept a MiG.-25 on a high altitude reconn mission profile.
          The F-14A/Phoenix and F-15A/Sparrow combinations are capable of killing a MiG.-25 at altitude.


          > M21Sniper
          > "i really don't understand why they aren't making many aircraft that havea
          > ceiling of 22,000 metres or more"
          The thin air makes conventional controls in-effective at those altitudes. As the USAF found out at those speeds and altitudes, all it takes to foil an intercept is a 100mph increase in speed or a 5º change in course.
          In the Aviation Week Video "SR-71," on one mission over Libya the air defense fired a SAM-5 at it. Listening at the pilot navigator talking after they detect that a missile has been launched at them and for about twenty seconds they discussed whether they should make a change in course or, increase their speed. They settled on increasing their speed by a little over 100mph and the SR-71 got to the intercept point before the missile and proceeded on its mission.

          > The F-22 can operate well 'in excess' of 60,000 feet, so it should be quite
          > capable of an AMRAAM Mig-25 intercept.
          Yes but the intercept parameters are relatively small for a target at those high altitudes or speeds.
          Whereas the F-22's is designed to operate as an "offensive counter air" fighter. That translates into the F-22 is designed to cruise over bad guy land and if possible kill the MiG.-25 long before it gets to high altitudes. (Somewhat like the way the P-51 got most of their kills against the Me-262)

          Adrian

          Comment


          • #6
            "i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71"

            Also SR-71 never being shot down in her own career unlike the Migs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Enzo Ferrari
              "i believe that the Foxbat is significantly less expensive than an SR-71"

              Also SR-71 never being shot down in her own career unlike the Migs.
              I never heard of a Foxbat being shot down...but may be I'm wrong.

              My bad...

              Iraq is believed to have obtained about 20 MiG-25PDs and eight MiG-25RBs in the 1980s. The MiG-25RBs were apparently used in a considerable number of air strikes on Iranian targets during the Iran-Iraq War during the 1980s.

              Many Iraqi Foxbats were destroyed on the ground during the Gulf War in 1991, and two were shot down in air combat by F-15s. One MiG-25PD shot down a US Navy F/A-18 Hornet on 20 January 1991, the only air-to-air kill scored by the Iraqis during the entire conflict. Another MiG-25 was shot down by F-16s on 25 December 1992 as a Christmas present to Saddam Hussein. A few MiG-25s were found after the US invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003, with some included in a batch of aircraft that had been buried under the sand to conceal it.


              *Edited
              Last edited by Jay; 09 May 05,, 12:22.
              A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jay
                I never heard of a Foxbat being shot down...but may be I'm wrong.

                My bad...

                Iraq is believed to have obtained about 20 MiG-25PDs and eight MiG-25RBs in the 1980s. The MiG-25RBs were apparently used in a considerable number of air strikes on Iranian targets during the Iran-Iraq War during the 1980s.

                Many Iraqi Foxbats were destroyed on the ground during the Gulf War in 1991, and two were shot down in air combat by F-15s. One MiG-25PD shot down a US Navy F/A-18 Hornet on 20 January 1991, the only air-to-air kill scored by the Iraqis during the entire conflict. Another MiG-25 was shot down by F-16s on 25 December 1992 as a Christmas present to Saddam Hussein. A few MiG-25s were found after the US invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003, with some included in a batch of aircraft that had been buried under the sand to conceal it.


                *Edited
                Israel AF shoot down Mig-25 in 1982 air war... more information to be supplied by experts here...

                Comment


                • #9
                  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...story/f15.html

                  This shows the entire history of the Syria-Israeli conflicts in the air, but this is a Jewish site so could be biased.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    http://www.indiadefence.com/IAF-Isr%20AirEx.htm

                    It was no surprise that in 2000 when United States Marine Corps (USMC) F/A-18 Hornets from Balkans theatre armed with standard models of AIM-9 Sidewinder engaged in mock air combats with Israeli AF fighters armed with Python 3 and Python 4 missiles in conjunction with DASH helmet mounted sight, they were “handled roughly” by the Israeli fighters. The Israelis prevailed in 220 out of 240 engagements. Interestingly, Python 4 is rumoured to be in service with the Indian Air Force but never officially confirmed. Under development is the "fifth-generation" Python 5 with Mach 4 speed and 20-km range, “360 degrees capability” facilitated by Lock-On After Launch capability, to deal with rear hemisphere threats.

                    Pythons on Migs of Sukhois and U have deadly Within Visual Range (WVR) capability. Best of both worlds

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Israelis sold the Pythons to PRC, right? I think I remember a pair of them on the wings of aircraft during the 2001 EP-3 confrontation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Israelis sold the Pythons to PRC, right? I think I remember a pair of them on the wings of aircraft during the 2001 EP-3 confrontation.
                        Python 3s which are called the PL-8.

                        It was no surprise that in 2000 when United States Marine Corps (USMC) F/A-18 Hornets from Balkans theatre armed with standard models of AIM-9 Sidewinder engaged in mock air combats with Israeli AF fighters armed with Python 3 and Python 4 missiles in conjunction with DASH helmet mounted sight, they were “handled roughly” by the Israeli fighters. The Israelis prevailed in 220 out of 240 engagements.
                        Hmmm USMC F/A-18Ds with center line fuel tanks fighting F-16Cs clean and with one side reporting on the outcome... are we ready for some BS...

                        I never heard of a Foxbat being shot down...but may be I'm wrong.
                        Iran bagged some as well as Israel and the USA.
                        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          hmm, the Foxbat, it is a old plane. The Americans know everything about it since that traitor Belenko.

                          good to see it still in service.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SovietHonor
                            hmm, the Foxbat, it is a old plane. The Americans know everything about it since that traitor Belenko.

                            good to see it still in service.
                            As a member of an Air Force likely to be an adversary to anybody operating the Foxbat, I agree - good to see it still in service.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've just gained an appreciation of the size of the thing. Is it the biggest interceptor in the world?

                              Comment

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