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I know, but think about it: the F-3 and F-22, from the looks of it, would fill the same slot. Which most likely means Japan would go for either one or the other. And I doubt that they would drop the F-3 now, because it's a big opportunity for the home industry.
How comparable would the F-3 be to the F-22 though?
I get that they would like to build what ever it is Japan (same as f-15 and 16) and that's obviously a real factor for them.
What's the timeline until a theoretical F-22 restart starts producing aircraft? The 6th gen fighter program is already scheduled to start production by 2025-2030, and I'm not sure an F-22 restart would beat that timeline by much. Afterall, where is the manpower coming from to operate the F-22 line? The guys with that expertise are currently busy building F-35s. Reducing the F-35 buy doesn't free them up in the short to mid term either. The US needs airframes now, as illustrated by the marines pulling Hornets from the Boneyard and an F-35 reduction just reduces the number produced in the 2020s.
What capability are you giving up by restarting the F-22 and pushing 6th gens further into the future? In my opinion the 6th gen F-22 successor is going to be built around the next offset strategy after stealth. Namely integrated DEW capability that can actively swat missiles from the sky. Such an ability would make it extremely capable at both air superiority, and as an escort protecting B-21s and F-35s from future more powerful ground based sensors and defenses that may begin to erode the effectiveness of stealth towards the later part of their lifetime.
Stuffing F-35 style sensors into an F-22 restart isn't going to be easy without major airframe changes to accommodate all the increased volume requirements that would entail, and building in a DEW isn't going to happen. I think a big reason we are seeing major investments into 3 stream variable cycle engine programs is that they are a prerequisite for incorporating the heat management necessary for airborne DEWs in fighters.
Fitting stealth, advanced sensor suite, 3 stream engines, and a powerful laser into a fighter sized platform is going to require a dedicated 6th gen design. I don't think it's worth postponing that kind of capability just to squeeze out a few more F-22s. We'll want it by the time our opponents have figured out how to field credible 5th gen fighters of their own.
can we really afford a 6th gen aircraft at the moment though? and can you afford DEW? Hell, they still haven't gotten them onto surface ships yet, were they have a lot more space to work with and a lot less size restraints.
I get the idea that it will never happen, but the idea does have a lot of merit to it.
if the Japanese are serious about spending 40 billion, and would take an updated F-22 over further development of something home grown, that's a pretty big cost offset for the US regardless of time lines.
no, its not going to happen, but it would seem to make a lot of sense.
The US needs airframes now, as illustrated by the marines pulling Hornets from the Boneyard and an F-35 reduction just reduces the number produced in the 2020s.
That is because the Marine Corp in order to fund the V-22 and F-35B, with rising cost and delayed entry into service, created the Harrier/F-18 situation.
If you read the piece, Aboulafia said it would not happen and that was good.
Richard Aboulafia a very well known aviation consultant take on restarting the F-22 and other programs.
I find it odd the reference to the B-1. Afaik, the program wasn't simply restarted, but essentially rebooted into an almost new aircraft, with diferente flight profiles, changes to the airframe, engine intakes... I don't think this would be done to the F-22, who would need "only" new electronics (maybe engine?).
I find it odd the reference to the B-1. Afaik, the program wasn't simply restarted, but essentially rebooted into an almost new aircraft, with diferente flight profiles, changes to the airframe, engine intakes... I don't think this would be done to the F-22, who would need "only" new electronics (maybe engine?).
Engine, stealth coatings, internal structure for improved manufacturability, improved signature management, more apertures for sensors, redesigning the cockpit for the f35s helmet, etc
That is because the Marine Corp in order to fund the V-22 and F-35B, with rising cost and delayed entry into service, created the Harrier/F-18 situation.
If you read the piece, Aboulafia said it would not happen and that was good.
We use "Blue" money to buy fixed wing aircraft. The Corps wanted to make sure that the Navy didn't cancel the 35B and were afraid that if they transitioned to SHornets the number of 35Bs would be cut.
It happened anyway. The Corps is buying 35Cs for CAW integration and got stuck with old legacy Hornets to boot.
can we really afford a 6th gen aircraft at the moment though? and can you afford DEW? Hell, they still haven't gotten them onto surface ships yet, were they have a lot more space to work with and a lot less size restraints.
We aren't scheduled to begin buying 6th gens until the 2025-2030 time range, and no doubt they will start with LRIP and gradually increase in numbers as we are able to ramp up production. We are still in the tech investment phase for 6th gens.
Part of the reason we've been investing so heavily into DEWs over the last decade is to mature the technology and shrink it down to the point that we can make a mobile version with the potency to be really nasty. The (apparently very successful) operational deployment of a laser on the Ponce is evidence of progress in this regard.
Lockheed and others have already pitched the idea of installing lasers powerful enough to blind IR missiles or IRST systems on fighters in the F-35 in place of the lift fan, and have developed adaptive optics to counteract atmospheric effects that would degrade the quality of the laser.
Miniaturization seems to be progressing well, and the F-135 engine provides plenty of power for a solid state laser, but the biggest issue seems to be heat management. The F-35 is already on the edge of having heat issues due to the amount of electronic gizmos packed into it. I think a big part of the push for 3 stream adaptive cycle engines is to allow aircraft to shed excess heat more effectively. Of course improvements in fuel efficiency never hurt either.
I don't think this would be done to the F-22, who would need "only" new electronics (maybe engine?).
This is where I can't convince myself it would be the case.
A big part of the reason the F-35 is so "fat" compared to the F-22 is all the extra electronics they packed into it. These electronics can't just be put any old place either, they are spread throughout the airframe and will require new apertures to function. 360 degree IR requires 360 degree sensors afterall.
Any new build F-22 will integrate new RAM materials as well as the ALIS system and the software to run it. They'll have some practice with building the ALIS system for the F-35, but I can't imagine it would be fast to build it into the F-22B.
Then you have questions about what else should go into the aircraft while you are busy redesigning big chunks of it anyway.
How about the adaptive cycle engines that are right around the corner? They offer big improvements in range but will require the airframe to be adapted to engines with a larger diameter.
Will the current F-22 weapons bay be able to handle the T3/CUDA derivitave that will replace the AIM-120D and the HARM? Can it carry them in sufficient numbers or does it need to be enlarged?
Etc.
At some point, you either try to pass off what is essentially a totally new aircraft as a modification of an existing type (Shornet) or just throw in the towel and start with a clean sheet design.
Any new build F-22 will integrate new RAM materials as well as the ALIS system and the software to run it. They'll have some practice with building the ALIS system for the F-35, but I can't imagine it would be fast to build it into the F-22B.
Forgot those, dumb me. Tbh, it looks more and more, from Japan's point of view, that the best idea would be to forge ahead with the F-3, since it looks like any reborn F-22 will be essentially a new aircraft. And, since Japan allready started the program...
As for any new foreign aircraft... since they allready have the stealthy F-35, and are building the F-3 (also with stealth features) do they even need a third stealth aircraft?
As for any new foreign aircraft... since they allready have the stealthy F-35, and are building the F-3 (also with stealth features) do they even need a third stealth aircraft?
I fully expect LO if not VLO to be standard in all future Western fighters/bombers.
The cost and compromises required to build stealth into aircraft has come down to very reasonable levels compared to the benefits it offers.
We aren't scheduled to begin buying 6th gens until the 2025-2030 time range, and no doubt they will start with LRIP and gradually increase in numbers as we are able to ramp up production. We are still in the tech investment phase for 6th gens.
Part of the reason we've been investing so heavily into DEWs over the last decade is to mature the technology and shrink it down to the point that we can make a mobile version with the potency to be really nasty. The (apparently very successful) operational deployment of a laser on the Ponce is evidence of progress in this regard.
Lockheed and others have already pitched the idea of installing lasers powerful enough to blind IR missiles or IRST systems on fighters in the F-35 in place of the lift fan, and have developed adaptive optics to counteract atmospheric effects that would degrade the quality of the laser.
Miniaturization seems to be progressing well, and the F-135 engine provides plenty of power for a solid state laser, but the biggest issue seems to be heat management. The F-35 is already on the edge of having heat issues due to the amount of electronic gizmos packed into it. I think a big part of the push for 3 stream adaptive cycle engines is to allow aircraft to shed excess heat more effectively. Of course improvements in fuel efficiency never hurt either.
New tanker, B-21, F-35, A-10 replacement etc etc etc... seems like there is a lot on the plate at the moment (or coming out of the wallet)
which, on a side note, if the Japanese are serious about that 40 billion.... piggyback that instead on an all new design..?
but either way, it seems like funding is going to be a huge issue (and all that wonderfull tech is very very very unproven), so leveraging foreign cash to upgrade and add numbers to an 'existing' fleet.... while continuing to develop and mature technologies to reduce the cost risk... from an outsider looking in it doesn't seem like a bad idea.
New tanker, B-21, F-35, A-10 replacement etc etc etc... seems like there is a lot on the plate at the moment (or coming out of the wallet)
I think the timing is such that the 6th gen fighter program will be kicking off production about the time that the F-35 and KC-46 are over the hump and the B-21 is at IOC.
This is what happens when you've been enjoying a peace dividend for a couple of decades due to lack of competition instead of recapitalizing.
I think the timing is such that the 6th gen fighter program will be kicking off production about the time that the F-35 and KC-46 are over the hump and the B-21 is at IOC.
This is what happens when you've been enjoying a peace dividend for a couple of decades due to lack of competition instead of recapitalizing.
I'll believe it when I see it.
6th gen kicking of production after the f35 etc are over the hump is great.... how about the billions of development costs leading up to that?
And I'll believe a lot of things when I see them.... but aren't there news reports out there that they are getting ready to start some studies/proposals for an A210 replacement? Or is that just bluster being reported as news?
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