Congress to look into restarting F-22 production

[Stitch]

interesting article from Tyler Rogoway's new gig at the 'The War Zone'........

Let the Japanese pay for restarting the line......

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...-japan-already

IIRC, Japan was on the short list of countries originally interested in purchasing the F-22, along with Australia and Israel; here's a good (but older) "white paper" on the subject: https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22684.pdf

[Gun Grape]

interesting article from Tyler Rogoway's new gig at the 'The War Zone'........

Let the Japanese pay for restarting the line......

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...-japan-already

Pipe dream. How many more F-35s could they buy for the price of restarting the F-22 line

[bfng3569]

Pipe dream. How many more F-35s could they buy for the price of restarting the F-22 line

how many more F35s could who buy for the price of restarting the F22 line?


the article floats the idea of using the 40 billion the Japanese are looking to spend to restart and update the F22.

[citanon]

how many more F35s could who buy for the price of restarting the F22 line?


the article floats the idea of using the 40 billion the Japanese are looking to spend to restart and update the F22.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/22/op...nd-norway.html

[Gun Grape]

how many more F35s could who buy for the price of restarting the F22 line?


the article floats the idea of using the 40 billion the Japanese are looking to spend to restart and update the F22.

How many more F-35s could the Japanese buy.

The idea that we could get Congress to approve a foreign sale of that level of stealth. Israel couldn't get them to approve access to the F-15SE. Then pitch the idea for them to pony "Up to 40 Billion" to restart the line, update the design and get 100 planes out of it is a pipe dream.

Getting an updated 15SE ,F-15C2040or a updated 18E would be a way better deal for the Japanese. If it has to be twin engine. Especially the 15 with joint or licensed production

[citanon]

How many more F-35s could the Japanese buy.

The idea that we could get Congress to approve a foreign sale of that level of stealth. Israel couldn't get them to approve access to the F-15SE. Then pitch the idea for them to pony "Up to 40 Billion" to restart the line, update the design and get 100 planes out of it is a pipe dream.

Getting an updated 15SE ,F-15C2040or a updated 18E would be a way better deal for the Japanese. If it has to be twin engine. Especially the 15 with joint or licensed production

Why does Japan contend that it needs the F22?

Isn't the whole point of the F-3 program to protect Japanese technological base?

[gf0012-aust]

I can think of a whole pile of engineering and practical reasons as to why its not realistic to do (restart F-22 line)

(not the same as a congressional direction waving pixie dust over someones good idea fairy and expecting it then to be turned into a "picard". ie "make it so"

[jlvfr]

Why does Japan contend that it needs the F22?

Isn't the whole point of the F-3 program to protect Japanese technological base?

At the time, Japan was looking for a future replacement for the F-15. The F-3 programm was started because the US didn't sell the F-22. But now that the prototype/tech demo "F-3" is flying, I doubt Japan would wand to re-finance the F-22, specially considering all the work this would involve.

[bfng3569]

How many more F-35s could the Japanese buy.

The idea that we could get Congress to approve a foreign sale of that level of stealth. Israel couldn't get them to approve access to the F-15SE. Then pitch the idea for them to pony "Up to 40 Billion" to restart the line, update the design and get 100 planes out of it is a pipe dream.

Getting an updated 15SE ,F-15C2040or a updated 18E would be a way better deal for the Japanese. If it has to be twin engine. Especially the 15 with joint or licensed production

How many more do they want? if your point were accurate, then there would be no X-2. Why waste the money developing that 'when they could just by more F-35's' (as you say). What they seem to want is something designed for optimized for air to air dominance.

as far as not getting access to the F-15Se and 'that level of stealth', Israel has already taken delivery of F-35's, and Japan will as well. are we trying to say that F-35 is a level below all that? of course not.

right or wrong (access wise) they are getting something above and beyond those capabilities with the F-35. and as the article points out, with the age of the F-22.... its not exactly anything 'new' at this point.

as far as getting them to 'pony up 40 billion'.... that's what they are doing anyway. its in the link.

[bfng3569]

Why does Japan contend that it needs the F22?

Isn't the whole point of the F-3 program to protect Japanese technological base?

the same reason the US needed it.

the second point is the one of interest I would think.

[bfng3569]

At the time, Japan was looking for a future replacement for the F-15. The F-3 programm was started because the US didn't sell the F-22. But now that the prototype/tech demo "F-3" is flying, I doubt Japan would wand to re-finance the F-22, specially considering all the work this would involve.

Japan will launch a tender for fighter jets as soon as mid-July, the Ministry of Defence said, in a deal seen worth up to $40 billion as Tokyo seeks to bolster its air defenses amid creeping tension with China over disputed maritime borders.

In one of the biggest fighter jet contracts up for grabs in years, a ministry spokesman said Japan will contact foreign and domestic defense contractors soon after a July 5 deadline for expressions of interest in the tender for about 100 warplanes

[jlvfr]

In one of the biggest fighter jet contracts up for grabs in years, a ministry spokesman said Japan will contact foreign and domestic defense contractors soon after a July 5 deadline for expressions of interest in the tender for about 100 warplanes

I know, but think about it: the F-3 and F-22, from the looks of it, would fill the same slot. Which most likely means Japan would go for either one or the other. And I doubt that they would drop the F-3 now, because it's a big opportunity for the home industry.

[Albany Rifles]

I can think of a whole pile of engineering and practical reasons as to why its not realistic to do (restart F-22 line)

(not the same as a congressional direction waving pixie dust over someones good idea fairy and expecting it then to be turned into a "picard". ie "make it so"

And from an Acquisition perspective I can give a bunch of reasons as well why this is a bad idea and against DOD Regulations. It bypasses the JCIDS process...which is a Congressional mandate...as well as bypasses the entire FAR.

[Dazed]

http://www.richardaboulafia.com/shownote.asp?id=476

Richard Aboulafia a very well known aviation consultant take on restarting the F-22 and other programs.

[SteveDaPirate]

http://www.richardaboulafia.com/shownote.asp?id=476

Richard Aboulafia a very well known aviation consultant take on restarting the F-22 and other programs.

What's the timeline until a theoretical F-22 restart starts producing aircraft? The 6th gen fighter program is already scheduled to start production by 2025-2030, and I'm not sure an F-22 restart would beat that timeline by much. Afterall, where is the manpower coming from to operate the F-22 line? The guys with that expertise are currently busy building F-35s. Reducing the F-35 buy doesn't free them up in the short to mid term either. The US needs airframes now, as illustrated by the marines pulling Hornets from the Boneyard and an F-35 reduction just reduces the number produced in the 2020s.

What capability are you giving up by restarting the F-22 and pushing 6th gens further into the future? In my opinion the 6th gen F-22 successor is going to be built around the next offset strategy after stealth. Namely integrated DEW capability that can actively swat missiles from the sky. Such an ability would make it extremely capable at both air superiority, and as an escort protecting B-21s and F-35s from future more powerful ground based sensors and defenses that may begin to erode the effectiveness of stealth towards the later part of their lifetime.

Stuffing F-35 style sensors into an F-22 restart isn't going to be easy without major airframe changes to accommodate all the increased volume requirements that would entail, and building in a DEW isn't going to happen. I think a big reason we are seeing major investments into 3 stream variable cycle engine programs is that they are a prerequisite for incorporating the heat management necessary for airborne DEWs in fighters.

Fitting stealth, advanced sensor suite, 3 stream engines, and a powerful laser into a fighter sized platform is going to require a dedicated 6th gen design. I don't think it's worth postponing that kind of capability just to squeeze out a few more F-22s. We'll want it by the time our opponents have figured out how to field credible 5th gen fighters of their own.