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Interesting encounter: Raptor vs. Iranian F-4's

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  • Interesting encounter: Raptor vs. Iranian F-4's

    Hope this hasn't been posted. I honestly had no idea F-22's were deployed in the region. And I have no way of verifying this encounter at all.

    General's Bold Account Of US F-22, Iranian F-4 Engagement

    Questions surrounding Welsh's account include whether or not other airborne operations vectored or supported the Raptor's approach, allowing it to avoid use of radar and safely maintain stealth while closing on the F-4s
    ^^^^

  • #2
    Interesting if true and it probably is, albeit embellished as these tales usually are.

    I've found some other sources but they mostly copy each other.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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    • #3
      I have doubts about the reported "comm" (Get out of here) between the Raptor and the F-4's. But to evade detection and slip into a fairly close formation would not be difficult, unless the F-4's were in a correct tactical formation and executing a superior visual search, which is hard to do in a modern jet, let alone an F-4 with very poor rearward visibility. More than likely, the F-4's were in a loose "route" formation.

      I also have to wonder if the Raptor was solo. That would go against every bit of tactical knowledge gained over decades of experience... My guess is his buddy was in a cover position, with his finger on the trigger.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Chogy View Post
        I have doubts about the reported "comm" (Get out of here) between the Raptor and the F-4's.
        Yeah that struck me as the most likely embellishment. Certainly his sudden appearance in a 5th Generation fighter screamed it loud and clear.

        But seriously, does the pilot speak Farsi? Or do the Iranians have a decent command of English?
        I can buy the possibility of them understanding English, the language of international aviation, but it still sounds too "Hollywood".
        “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
          Yeah that struck me as the most likely embellishment. Certainly his sudden appearance in a 5th Generation fighter screamed it loud and clear.

          But seriously, does the pilot speak Farsi? Or do the Iranians have a decent command of English?
          I can buy the possibility of them understanding English, the language of international aviation, but it still sounds too "Hollywood".
          We used to talk to Iranian F-4s, F-14s, C-130s, and P-3s operating over the Persian Gulf and Northern Arabian Sea; telling them to avoid us at all costs, lest we send an SM-2ER up their tailpipes. They all spoke English. Perhaps having a fire control radar blaring in their ears as well as English improved their vocabulary, but they spoke English well enough regardless.

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          • #6
            I bet it went something like this:



            Just substitute Cougar for the Predator and Maverick and Goose for the F-22, and Jimmy for the sweaty, cigar smoking bald guy repeatedly saying God Dammit!
            Last edited by citanon; 22 Sep 13,, 01:12.

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            • #7
              F-22s have been deploying to the Gulf for several years.

              Originally posted by Chogy View Post
              I also have to wonder if the Raptor was solo. That would go against every bit of tactical knowledge gained over decades of experience... My guess is his buddy was in a cover position, with his finger on the trigger.
              I agree with your guess. They generally work in pairs.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                We used to talk to Iranian F-4s, F-14s, C-130s, and P-3s operating over the Persian Gulf and Northern Arabian Sea; telling them to avoid us at all costs, lest we send an SM-2ER up their tailpipes. They all spoke English. Perhaps having a fire control radar blaring in their ears as well as English improved their vocabulary, but they spoke English well enough regardless.
                They always were polite and professional with us though- at least the P3's that would look you over when you transited the Straits. As an aside, while we were in Manama for a few days, we ran into members of the Iranian national soccer team- they were exceedingly nice and very anxious to let us know that they weren't Iraqi's. This was May/June 88, right after the Roberts hit the mine and operation preying mantis, not 87. Speaking of which, Sam Roberts is on Hero Ships right now. (the only time my wife and kids allow me to watch tv)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DonBelt View Post
                  They always were polite and professional with us though- at least the P3's that would look you over when you transited the Straits. As an aside, while we were in Manama for a few days, we ran into members of the Iranian national soccer team- they were exceedingly nice and very anxious to let us know that they weren't Iraqi's. This was May/June 88, right after the Roberts hit the mine and operation preying mantis, not 87. Speaking of which, Sam Roberts is on Hero Ships right now. (the only time my wife and kids allow me to watch tv)
                  We relieved Vincennes after they screwed up and were Golf Whiskey for the duration of our time there. Yeah, they were plenty polite. I always thought it was that they didn't want to piss off the crazy Americans. We had that whole canned speech we were supposed to give, where we ratcheted up the angst with each repetition, upgrading our defense posture at every step. I got to the point of putting birds on the rail a couple of times but no farther, thank God. Not that I'd have cared about them, but one never knows what the outcome might be when one steps over the line like that.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                    I have doubts about the reported "comm" (Get out of here) between the Raptor and the F-4's. But to evade detection and slip into a fairly close formation would not be difficult, unless the F-4's were in a correct tactical formation and executing a superior visual search, which is hard to do in a modern jet, let alone an F-4 with very poor rearward visibility. More than likely, the F-4's were in a loose "route" formation.

                    I also have to wonder if the Raptor was solo. That would go against every bit of tactical knowledge gained over decades of experience... My guess is his buddy was in a cover position, with his finger on the trigger.
                    Maybe it was a sign of a very dangerous mindset that might be setting in, in the minds of F-22 pilots, that they are invincible which can lead to serious misjudgments of actual situation. Even if the buddy was in a cover position, if the F-22 pilot was so close to the F-4's and the engagement happen, the shrapnel from the F-4 would damage the F-22. It looks to me like unnecessary showing off, kind of exercise in vanity. If not dangerous most certainly careless.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by desertswo View Post
                      We used to talk to Iranian F-4s, F-14s, C-130s, and P-3s operating over the Persian Gulf and Northern Arabian Sea; telling them to avoid us at all costs, lest we send an SM-2ER up their tailpipes. They all spoke English. Perhaps having a fire control radar blaring in their ears as well as English improved their vocabulary, but they spoke English well enough regardless.
                      I imagine some of them trained under the Shah - very possibly in the US or with US trainers. Wouldn't be especially surprised if more recently trained ones learned English too. Best way to know what the guy trying to kill you is saying. ;)
                      sigpic

                      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                        Hope this hasn't been posted. I honestly had no idea F-22's were deployed in the region. And I have no way of verifying this encounter at all.
                        Sir

                        Upto 10 F 22 Deployed in UAE
                        sajeevpearlj.blogspot.com

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SajeevJino View Post
                          Sir

                          Upto 10 F 22 Deployed in UAE
                          Seems like overkill when F-15's and F-16's and Naval Air can handle anything in the area.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SajeevJino View Post
                            Sir

                            Upto 10 F 22 Deployed in UAE
                            Interesting. USAF had kept their stealths on US turf. They were not deployed even in Aviano or Incirlik.
                            Any links and/or ideas what are 10 Raptors doing in UAE?
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                              Interesting. USAF had kept their stealths on US turf. They were not deployed even in Aviano or Incirlik.
                              Any links and/or ideas what are 10 Raptors doing in UAE?
                              It's political, for domestic consumption, much the same way the General's telling of the story was. If they cannot be shown doing what they were designed to do, then the taxpayer begins to wonder what their dollars are going to pay for. It would be even better if one of them smoked the other guy, much the way the F-117 had its coming out over Iraq (and swan song over Belgrade).

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