sorry, according to these links, the M53-P2 is slightly more fuel efficient than the AL-31FP 0.9 to 0.97
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i can't provide a link, but(similar to the Su-30MKI's) i've seen the priceof a Mirage 2000 advertised at $50 million
yes, i've heard that you have 66 MiG 29 and will have 80 once you get your K's, i didn't know how many Mirage 2000's you had, but youshould have approximately 140 MKI's by the end of the year
i know you don't have that many MKI's, but when you have something as incredible as an MKI, you don't need many
nope, the F-22 price has been hiked up a ton, its is now $370 million and the price of the JSF has gone from a minimum of $30 million for the cheapest version to $37 million
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http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...ssia/pak-fa.htm
here's the price of the PAK-FA $35-40 million, but i've also read $30 million
http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.co...=0&#entry579804
AESA would be the only way the F-16 would win, go with the Gripen, its avionics in general is more advanced and it got the best score, incredible aircraft, the thing i hate about the Mirage is its crappy missiles, the MiCA IR is awesome but the Mica RF is horrible for BVR
the R-27 is a dominator missile, this is the destroyer of all missiles, so many different versions for different tasks, long range, high speed, and it has a modular construction adding that it can be upgraded several times over and over, and has a passive seeker, making it "stealthy" the R-77 has a longer range than the R-27T/R, but not more than the R-27TE/RE, but the R-77's range will get increased to 180km+, as well, the Su-30MKI is likely to receive the 300km+ K-172 missile from Russia in a few yearsmaintainability, its what the people expect it will cost them to maintain an aircraft like the Fulcrum,
even if i were to add in the cheap labour of India, which would make the aircraft cheaper, the difference between aircraft would only change by 2-3 million, not anything significant, i heard that its range is 120km+, if it is, then arguaby, i'd say that the F-16E Block 60 would be the winner, anyways, i'm sleepy, goodnight
Though range for radar for Mig29M. Though the radar for Indian version might be much better as i recently posted the link that curretn upgrades for mig29 (indian ones) use a radar with 185Km detection range and 200km search range.Mig29's range is well above 800km. with internal fuel.
About the cost Well cost of MKi was brouight down to 27.5M$ from 35M$. I think tahts nought o show how much of a difference we can make.
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yes, i've heard that you have 66 MiG 29 and will have 80 once you get your K's, i didn't know how many Mirage 2000's you had, but youshould have approximately 140 MKI's by the end of the year
Well IAF has 66mig29 but dont include the 16K's to come as they are for mavy.
For M2K we have around 60( with teh recent procurements coming in.).
for MKI we have 50 already with local production on which will deliver 10-14 aircrafts per year from this year. totalling to around 190 when the production completes.
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Originally posted by Mr-VaastuIn today’s BVR Air-to-air combat scenarios, the aircraft that locks onto the other first and fires is the winner. There is no question of dogfighting and evasive maneuvering. It is the missile and not the aircraft that requires the maneuverability to intercept the enemy aircraft. Aerodynamically, the R-27 is superior to the AMRAAM with a range of 130 km, while other variants have a maximum range of between 70 to 170 kilometers.
Therefore, a Mach 1.8 capable LCA sophisticatedly designed with composites, DFCS, Quad FBW, IRST, integrated EW suite with sensor fusion and much like the Luftwaffe MiG-29s having a pulse-Doppler radar , helmet mounted sight system fitted with R-27 would defeat a Mach 1.9 Block 52 F-16 with ease.
Then thw F16 will see LCA first and then knowing that LCa would be carrying a longer range missile it would evade the LCA's search range and come on its ass and then hit it ( as LCA wont be able to see wat is coming behind it . ) LCa will go down wihtout doning anythin. BTW the ;latest AIM120C/D missiles are of quite longer ranges. ( well i m just taking examples off radar ranges but it makes sense not to say taht LCA can kill down F16 rite now bec rite now we havent even decided on LCA's radar .
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Mr. Vastu, i know that BVR is the most important engagement type(far more important than NVR/WVR) thats why when totalling the scores(estimated scores)i added 0.8 to the winner aircraft in BVR, which means that even if you lose WVR like the MiG-29M did to the F-16E Block 60, and you win BVR, like the MiG-29M did to the F-16E Block 60, since the Mig-29M won at BVR, it therefore has the highest cahnce of defeating the enemy
yes the R-27 is a beautiful missile and capabilities and looks, really, 170km range, where did you get that from, i though that the longest range R-27 was the R-27RE which has sa 130km range
i am completely aware what the MKI stands for, but even though it was meant for export(the K, M means multi-role, and I means indiski, which means india), but that doesn't mean that Russian can't sell it to other nations
i know that Russia will be delivering some 18 Su-30MKM's to Malaysia for approximately $50 million each, while Vietnam received the Su-30MK2(four aircraft) for $100 million, or $25 million each, Indonesia purchased two Su-27SK's and two Su-30MK's and wants to purchase another at least two wings more of these Sukhoi aircraft , Thailand wanted to purchase 6 Su-30's for 250,000 tonnes of chicken meat
http://www.mosnews.com/money/2004/11...esiajets.shtml
where did that come from, Indonesia ordered 10 Sukhoi jets but couldn't pay for them, and were given to India, no, i have never heard of that, and yes, your probably right, the early model Sukhoi's that were delivered to India were the Su-30K's
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=de00207001
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=de00205001
its not much of a comparison, very short, but they both have synthetic aperture, but the AN/APG-80 is superior, by, a significant margin, its radar pulses, that it uses to jam enemy missiles is highly effective, and it has a really long range
actually, the JAS-39D is starting to stray from American hardware and software now, they will use European hardware, such as the Brimstone and Meteor missiles, and European software such as the BOL Protection System
also, if you were to buy the F-16E Block 60, America wouldn't allow you to purchase fighters from other countries such as Russia, or even their missiles
the Gripen uses the RM12 engine, its the weakest engine out of all engines that equip the fighters in this tender, and, yes i guess you can say its American, its a derivative of the very advanced American F404 engine, which shares the same technology as the F110-GE-132 that the F-16E Block 60 uses, but is even more advanced!well, than if the JAS-39D is knocked out, i give the highest chances to the MiG-29M, but then again, whos says America will allow India to purchase the Block 60, it was originally meant for the UAE, but America might decide to offer it for export now
whats ToT, i'm sorry, i'm not really familiar with aeronautic abreviations, just because the R-27 and R-73 are old, doesn't mean that their not capable, you have to get that mode of think out of your head, personally, the R-27RE is even better than the R-77, it also has a longer range, is passive-guided, and because of its modular design, will ensure that it reamins one of the top missiles in the world, don't count it out yet
the link doesn't work for me right now, so can you tell me the main difference between the two engines?
that was $2,400 cost for maintenance of entire aircraft, not just the engines, also, since the Mirage 2000 can't take off from dirt runways(or at least i think so, can you approve?) and since its got a lot of modern technology, which requires more maintenance than the MKI, and since the MKI can launch form dirt runways, its more reliable, personally, i think its worth it for what its capable of doing, i just found a link on the characteristics of the RD-33 engine, apparently, its more efficient than either of the engines
http://www.rbs.ru/vttv/99/firms/baranov/e-rd-33.htm
0.97 for the AL-31FP
0.9 for the M53-P2
and 0.73 for the RD-33
the MiG-29M's range is 2,000km, the longest of any fighter in the tender, actually, thats the minimum range, the range that i originally put was 5,500 km, because
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00252004
look, at the range, lol, thats crazy
that was an artciel, if you read it, he just copied and pasted it, i know, i hated that forum while i was searching for the place that he pasted it in, those people are retards, yea, the T-50 would cost between i'm estimating $26 million to #34 million for India and Russia, while for export $35 million or higher
190 MKI are possible for some serious mofo destructo(it rhymes) you guys should get somewhere like the 452 original Su-27 Flankers that Russia has, in addition to 24 Su-27SM Flankers(which are regarded as superior to the MKI by Russia and they are much cheaper) 1+ Su-30's, 1+ Su-35's, 1+ Su-37's, and 5 Su-34 that Russia has, oh by the way, are you guys planning to procure the Su-34
India should really contemplate on whether they should purchase it or not, in A2G, its a lot more efficient and effective than the MKI, and by the way, its the most beautiful bird in the air(my opinion)
now how would the F-16 evade the LCA's radar, would it sink to a really low altitude, possibly giving its position to SAM's, huh, and how would it get in on the LCA's ass without the LCA detecting it?
the LCA is going to be a pretty cool plane, really looking forward to it, anyways, thats all to respond to, have a nice dayfor MOTHER MOLDOVA
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Originally posted by Dimawill India consider providing their LCA for export? and if so, what do you guys think it will be able to perform, dso you think that it will outdo the JF-17, F-35, T-50, Typhoon, Rafale?
It will be cheaper than all except JF17 but when compared to JF17 it will offer much more in terms of avionics radars missile choices and at an overall much better with a lot of scope of upgrades.
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Originally posted by DimaMr. Vastu, i know that BVR is the most important engagement type(far more important than NVR/WVR) thats why when totalling the scores(estimated scores)i added 0.8 to the winner aircraft in BVR, which means that even if you lose WVR like the MiG-29M did to the F-16E Block 60, and you win BVR, like the MiG-29M did to the F-16E Block 60, since the Mig-29M won at BVR, it therefore has the highest cahnce of defeating the enemy
2. Whats the range for AIM120C which is what will most prob be feilded.
Without the answers to these questions u analysis is useless.
yes the R-27 is a beautiful missile and capabilities and looks, really, 170km range, where did you get that from, i though that the longest range R-27 was the R-27RE which has sa 130km range
latest version of R77 in developm,ent.
i am completely aware what the MKI stands for, but even though it was meant for export(the K, M means multi-role, and I means indiski, which means india), but that doesn't mean that Russian can't sell it to other nations
i know that Russia will be delivering some 18 Su-30MKM's to Malaysia for approximately $50 million each, while Vietnam received the Su-30MK2(four aircraft) for $100 million, or $25 million each, Indonesia purchased two Su-27SK's and two Su-30MK's and wants to purchase another at least two wings more of these Sukhoi aircraft , Thailand wanted to purchase 6 Su-30's for 250,000 tonnes of chicken meat
http://www.mosnews.com/money/2004/11...esiajets.shtml
where did that come from, Indonesia ordered 10 Sukhoi jets but couldn't pay for them, and were given to India, no, i have never heard of that, and yes, your probably right, the early model Sukhoi's that were delivered to India were the Su-30K's
its not much of a comparison, very short, but they both have synthetic aperture, but the AN/APG-80 is superior, by, a significant margin, its radar pulses, that it uses to jam enemy missiles is highly effective, and it has a really long range
actually, the JAS-39D is starting to stray from American hardware and software now, they will use European hardware, such as the Brimstone and Meteor missiles, and European software such as the BOL Protection System
also, if you were to buy the F-16E Block 60, America wouldn't allow you to purchase fighters from other countries such as Russia, or even their missiles
the Gripen uses the RM12 engine, its the weakest engine out of all engines that equip the fighters in this tender, and, yes i guess you can say its American, its a derivative of the very advanced American F404 engine, which shares the same technology as the F110-GE-132 that the F-16E Block 60 uses, but is even more advanced!well, than if the JAS-39D is knocked out, i give the highest chances to the MiG-29M, but then again, whos says America will allow India to purchase the Block 60, it was originally meant for the UAE, but America might decide to offer it for export now
Well i think the similar blk60 models are being sold to israelis and japaneese.
whats ToT,
i'm sorry, i'm not really familiar with aeronautic abreviations, just because the R-27 and R-73 are old, doesn't mean that their not capable, you have to get that mode of think out of your head, personally, the R-27RE is even better than the R-77, it also has a longer range, is passive-guided, and because of its modular design, will ensure that it reamins one of the top missiles in the world, don't count it out yet
the link doesn't work for me right now, so can you tell me the main difference between the two engines?
that was $2,400 cost for maintenance of entire aircraft, not just the engines, also, since the Mirage 2000 can't take off from dirt runways(or at least i think so, can you approve?) and since its got a lot of modern technology, which requires more maintenance than the MKI, and since the MKI can launch form dirt runways, its more reliable, personally, i think its worth it for what its capable of doing, i just found a link on the characteristics of the RD-33 engine, apparently, its more efficient than either of the engineshttp://www.rbs.ru/vttv/99/firms/baranov/e-rd-33.htm
0.97 for the AL-31FP
0.9 for the M53-P2
and 0.73 for the RD-33
the MiG-29M's range is 2,000km, the longest of any fighter in the tender, actually, thats the minimum range, the range that i originally put was 5,500 km, because
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00252004
look, at the range, lol, thats crazy
that was an artciel, if you read it, he just copied and pasted it, i know, i hated that forum while i was searching for the place that he pasted it in, those people are retards, yea, the T-50 would cost between i'm estimating $26 million to #34 million for India and Russia, while for export $35 million or higher
190 MKI are possible for some serious mofo destructo(it rhymes) you guys should get somewhere like the 452 original Su-27 Flankers that Russia has, in addition to 24 Su-27SM Flankers(which are regarded as superior to the MKI by Russia and they are much cheaper) 1+ Su-30's, 1+ Su-35's, 1+ Su-37's, and 5 Su-34 that Russia has, oh by the way, are you guys planning to procure the Su-34
India should really contemplate on whether they should purchase it or not, in A2G, its a lot more efficient and effective than the MKI, and by the way, its the most beautiful bird in the air(my opinion)
now how would the F-16 evade the LCA's radar, would it sink to a really low altitude, possibly giving its position to SAM's, huh, and how would it get in on the LCA's ass without the LCA detecting it?
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LCAs stealthiness
The most important target of the technology demonstration phase was to put the composite LCA airframe, described as the world's smallest and lightest, supersonic, multi-role fighter. Its small size and the extensive use of composites also make this agile aircraft much stealthier than its formidable competitors, without having to resort to aerodynamically inefficient compromises as in the case of, for example, the U.S. F-117 `Stealth' fighter. The F-16 fighter, by way of analogy, replaced analogue with digital controls while morphing from its original A/B form to the much more capable F-16 C/D in the 1990s. On the other hand, the LCA's quadruplex (four channel) digital FBW system is what the world's most advanced aircraft currently use and an analogue system may already have been up for replacement. Hence modern aerodynamic design with static instability (controlled by a digital flight control system), a full glass cockpit, full authority digital engine control (FADEC), and up-to-date weapons systems, including beyond visual range air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles, makes the LCA a match for even the latest versions of the U.S. F-16 or the French Mirage 2000
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IAF & the F-16
Originally posted by ajaybhutaniwell india is floating tenders for 125 fighters wherein F16 Mirage2000 mig29 etc are competing . Adn there are questions here like
1. shudnt we wait for LCA and then produce mroe of them ??
2. shudnt we scrap LCA as its late and opt for more of Teh fighter selected.??
And all these questions are shall be greatly influenced by answers to questions like LCA vs F16 LCa vs Mirage 2000 or LCA vs Mig29.F-16 and the IAF
The IAF will never opt for neither design a plane like the F-16, which is nothing but an ordinary oversized F-5 so to speak. No IAF pilot would want to feel like a Goldfish in that big bubble glass cockpit. Also that steeply declined high ass mounted F-16 seat would make you feel more like John Wayne saddled on a Cayuse in some Hollywood Western rather than a fighter pilot
Furthermore IAF pilots aren’t made like the frenzied Falcon pilots, they’re more serious types like the German pilots, the Luftwaffe hunter-killers who sit snugly low in their cockpits like snipers moving in for the kill :)
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Mr vastu,
in one post u say that certain properties of LCA make it comparable to latest models of F16 and M2K and in another u phase out F16 as a crap .Then if i assume that u werent kidding in any of these that u => LCa is crap(is u said that both are comparable here) which again defys ur posts . P{lease donot post contradictory statements.
And yes about F16. IF we are gettting it with a complete ToT . I think indians willbe a fool to leave suc h an offer.
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Originally posted by Mr VastuF-16 and the IAF
The IAF will never opt for neither design a plane like the F-16, which is nothing but an ordinary oversized F-5 so to speak. No IAF pilot would want to feel like a Goldfish in that big bubble glass cockpit. Also that steeply declined high ass mounted F-16 seat would make you feel more like John Wayne saddled on a Cayuse in some Hollywood Western rather than a fighter pilot
Furthermore IAF pilots aren’t made like the frenzied Falcon pilots, they’re more serious types like the German pilots, the Luftwaffe hunter-killers who sit snugly low in their cockpits like snipers moving in for the kill :)
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wow, ajay, soo many questions
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
70 km range for AIM-120C
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=mn00005003
48 km
the range for the MiG-29M Zhuk-ME radar is 245km against ship-sized targets, and 120km against fighter-sized aircraft
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=de00285001
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1804.html
extensive comparison between the EF-2000 and the F-35 and F-16, according to that, the AN/APG-80 radar has a range of 130km
yes, you are correct, the MKM will incoporate Russian and Malaysian avionics instead of the proposed Israeli
actually, the first Su-30's to arrive in India were Su-30K's, with the first batch of Su-30MKI's in 2002, now, all the earlier K's and MK's are being upgraded to MKI, the Su-30's that were involved against the Eagles were Su-30K's
too much of an influence, are you kidding me, there's is a ban on weapons to China, compared to China, India is just another "country"(sorry, didn't mean to be rude, just wanted to express the point)
actually, America is selling the F-2 to Japan which is superior to all American F-16C/D models
i was starting to document on the thrust to weight ratio's, but i got too lazy, it was a really long post, i remember that the F-16 had the best, oh yea, now i remember, it was the F-16, MiG-29, JAS-39, and Mirage 2000
the Mirage M53-P2 and the new engine upgrade
well, for a response to your analogy, it is partially correct, because the MiG-29M weighs so much more than the Mirage 2000-5, but the point is that the RD-33 isn't as unfuel-efficient as everyone thinks
"I dont think u have a source stating that mki's A2G is not as good as Su34's A2G"
well, you don't need to, it's common sense, that a bomber aircraft has a better A2G attack capability than a multi-role aircraft, and what abpout all the points you've provided, and backed up with nothing, particularly the carrier discussion
"Well i explained in my previous post if u can see someone from a distance from which he cannot see u then u jus tneed to go in a circle aroudn him so that he cannot see u while u end up on his back and then u some near him while he cannot see u as he can only see in the front and then a Aim120c hit will do the job."
this still doesn't make sense, you are implying that the F-16 would detect the LCA before the LCA detected it, that may be true because the F-16 , might have a better radar, we are not sure, but the LCA employs limited amounts of stealth technology, therefore, it would be roughly even, and even if what you are saying is true(the first half) as the aircraft get's closer, the radar resonance becomes clearer, and it will eventually figure it out, the Falcon will be found outfor MOTHER MOLDOVA
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Originally posted by Dimawow, ajay, soo many questions
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
70 km range for AIM-120C
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=mn00005003
48 km
the range for the MiG-29M Zhuk-ME radar is 245km against ship-sized targets, and 120km against fighter-sized aircraft
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=de00285001
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1804.html
extensive comparison between the EF-2000 and the F-35 and F-16, according to that, the AN/APG-80 radar has a range of 130km
alysis.
yes, you are correct, the MKM will incoporate Russian and Malaysian avionics instead of the proposed Israeli
actually, the first Su-30's to arrive in India were Su-30K's, with the first batch of Su-30MKI's in 2002, now, all the earlier K's and MK's are being upgraded to MKI, the Su-30's that were involved against the Eagles were Su-30K's
too much of an influence, are you kidding me, there's is a ban on weapons to China, compared to China, India is just another "country"(sorry, didn't mean to be rude, just wanted to express the point)
actually, America is selling the F-2 to Japan which is superior to all American F-16C/D models
i was starting to document on the thrust to weight ratio's, but i got too lazy, it was a really long post, i remember that the F-16 had the best, oh yea, now i remember, it was the F-16, MiG-29, JAS-39, and Mirage 2000
the Mirage M53-P2 and the new engine upgrade
well, for a response to your analogy, it is partially correct, because the MiG-29M weighs so much more than the Mirage 2000-5, but the point is that the RD-33 isn't as unfuel-efficient as everyone thinks
"I dont think u have a source stating that mki's A2G is not as good as Su34's A2G"
well, you don't need to, it's common sense, that a bomber aircraft has a better A2G attack capability than a multi-role aircraft, and what abpout all the points you've provided, and backed up with nothing, particularly the carrier discussion
MKI
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Ai...ecs/index.html
SU34
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su34/
Well one point u missed is that MKI is designed for multirole. and not as jsut a fighter. So u cannot take it as obvious for it to be not as good as SU34 in A2G.U need to validate it with reasons.
"Well i explained in my previous post if u can see someone from a distance from which he cannot see u then u jus tneed to go in a circle aroudn him so that he cannot see u while u end up on his back and then u some near him while he cannot see u as he can only see in the front and then a Aim120c hit will do the job."
this still doesn't make sense, you are implying that the F-16 would detect the LCA before the LCA detected it, that may be true because the F-16 , might have a better radar, we are not sure, but the LCA employs limited amounts of stealth technology, therefore, it would be roughly even, and even if what you are saying is true(the first half) as the aircraft get's closer, the radar resonance becomes clearer, and it will eventually figure it out, the Falcon will be found out
Well yes because
1. the trials for LCA's radar has not even started yet. They wil lbegin in a few days .
2. Its the first radar to be developed by indians for the fighter aircrafts. So we need to wait and see how good it turns out to be.
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