What is up with the F-35? Part II

[Blademaster]

I got to ask....so how much experience in defense Acquisition do you folks have? How quickly do you think it takes develop this kind of technology? If you test the hell out of a system during its development phase of the acquisition life cycle you end up saving money in the long run by fielding a system with higher reliability. 70% of Program costs come after a system is fielded. So you do everything you can in development to drive long range costs down.

What you are seeing is nothing more than the due diligence of a program manager spending smaller money now to spend less money later. It's called designing for RAM reliability, availability,maintainability.

If the Osprey had done more of this it would not have the problems it had for so long.

The problem with this approach is that if you take too long to test it, it runs the risk of becoming obsolete by the time it comes out of the long development gestation stage and into production where it gets overtaken by newer cheaper technologies designed to counter it. It only may have a short period of time where it runs superiority to others. Then the value of investment sunk into this project comes into question.

[Albany Rifles]

The problem with this approach is that if you take too long to test it, it runs the risk of becoming obsolete by the time it comes out of the long development gestation stage and into production where it gets overtaken by newer cheaper technologies designed to counter it. It only may have a short period of time where it runs superiority to others. Then the value of investment sunk into this project comes into question.

1. What is the threat today that overmatches the current air fleet? What is the dire need to rush an aircraft into production?

2. The F-35 is currently in the MIlestone B phase of program development. That is the engineering and development phase of program life cycle. This means the contractor is refining all of the system engineering work, developing the production methods and conducting market research on a variety of vendors. The government is determining how to field the system and conducting the documentation review. Jointly they are planning and conducting technical and development tests and evaluating the resulting data. From that they refine how the aircrft gets produced. They are not scheduled for their Milestone C decision until FY 2014. At that time they will have the authority to conduct a low rate initial production and proceed to squadron service for operational test. At the operational test an active squadron will put it through the paces against all specified missions for a period of time, data colelcted and final production decisions made. Additionally the ability for the logistics infrastructure to support the aircraft is also tested and validated. That is everything from tools, test equipment, parts, service schedules and inspections and service life computations. Only then is the aircraft given the green light to proceed.

3. Full fielding is expected to begin in FY 2016 and complete by 2025/. Service life with no SLEP is expected to be to 2045.

So knowing those facts, and facts they are, it is on path. It is following the exact path for acquisition for a major defense program as detailed by federal law.

If they did not do these things in this manner people could go to jail, literally.

Feel free to review DODI 5000.01 and DODI 5000.02.

I am a Level 2 Certified Acquisition Logistician working towards Level 3....that is where the Defense Professional on my profile comes from. I deal with this every day.

This is how we keep anymore Sergeant Yorks, A-12 Avenger IIs and Crusaders from happening.

[ArtyEngineer]

AR Reply

I am a Level 2 Certified Acquisition Logistician working towards Level 3....that is where the Defense Professional on my profile comes from. I deal with this every day.

This is how we keep anymore Sergeant Yorks, A-12 Avenger IIs and Crusaders from happening.

AR,

I really need to stop by for a chat with you in the near future when im back up the east coast direction. You list there 3 BIG ticket items, but by god there are a lot of smaller ticket items coming into service without the due diligence you reference.

Im gonna just throw one out there. DRASH shelters. Thats a Dirty Word in both Ft Bragg and Ft Bliss right now. Talking to the Brigade Maintenance Officer (Crusty old CW5 type), they are unsupportable, break ALL the fucking time and no repair parts can be procured through established logistics systems. Dont know all the details just know folks not happy. I could give a lot of other examples of items pushed in to service with no thought to sustainment!!!

Regards

Arty

[Jimmy]

I got to ask....so how much experience in defense Acquisition do you folks have? How quickly do you think it takes develop this kind of technology? If you test the hell out of a system during its development phase of the acquisition life cycle you end up saving money in the long run by fielding a system with higher reliability. 70% of Program costs come after a system is fielded. So you do everything you can in development to drive long range costs down.

What you are seeing is nothing more than the due diligence of a program manager spending smaller money now to spend less money later. It's called designing for RAM reliability, availability,maintainability.

If the Osprey had done more of this it would not have the problems it had for so long.

I may not have an acquisitions background, but I can see that the exponential expansion of the development timeline is bleeding the budget dry and having a real (negative) impact on everything else. I've seen so much wringing of hands on stupid crap that I have zero faith in the industry whatsoever. The turning point was when Boeing told us the electrical problems we were having on several E-3s was due to having more than 2 laptops plugged in to the 110v outlets. That's right, 2 laptops was ok, 3 or more was overstressing the generators leading to power fluctuations that were causing mission system malfunctions. Testing, my ass. Maybe this F-35 delay was legit, I don't know. But I'm horrendously jaded on this. Almost every "upgrade" I've seen firsthand makes me laugh at the idea that the contractors give a damn beyond getting paid for every time they blink within an arm's reach of the system, whether they accomplish anything or not.

Edit: I'm not arguing that such testing as you describe isn't necessary, I'm arguing that I've seen plenty of systems where it accomplished nothing but wasted time and money.

[S2]

Bomber Pilot Makes History In Movies

Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?

[Albany Rifles]

I may not have an acquisitions background, but I can see that the exponential expansion of the development timeline is bleeding the budget dry and having a real (negative) impact on everything else. I've seen so much wringing of hands on stupid crap that I have zero faith in the industry whatsoever. The turning point was when Boeing told us the electrical problems we were having on several E-3s was due to having more than 2 laptops plugged in to the 110v outlets. That's right, 2 laptops was ok, 3 or more was overstressing the generators leading to power fluctuations that were causing mission system malfunctions. Testing, my ass. Maybe this F-35 delay was legit, I don't know. But I'm horrendously jaded on this. Almost every "upgrade" I've seen firsthand makes me laugh at the idea that the contractors give a damn beyond getting paid for every time they blink within an arm's reach of the system, whether they accomplish anything or not.

Edit: I'm not arguing that such testing as you describe isn't necessary, I'm arguing that I've seen plenty of systems where it accomplished nothing but wasted time and money.

Jimmy,

Then your argument is not with DOD....it is with Congress. We just follow the law.


You are obviously jaded. I understand. As a company commander I fielded the first M2A1 Bradleys in the Army. Had some huge reliability problems on the electronics and TOW 2 system. What you experienced with Boeing products I can see you and raise. I have been working defense acquisition for 22 years.

Remember, at the end of the day every defense contractor is about their shareholders not their end user.

What is happening now with F 35 will prevent a lot of future failures from happening. I am actually encouraged by what I am seeing. That PM gets it.

[USSWisconsin]

Thanks Buck, I feel like you turned a light on here. I think I get the point. It seems to me like the F35 could be a very good aircraft - I am pleased they are doing something right.

[Jimmy]

Jimmy,

Then your argument is not with DOD....it is with Congress. We just follow the law.

I most definitely lay a lot of blame with Congress. But lazy engineers (like the ones who signed off on our "new" mirc hardware, or blamed laptops for electrical problems) are a closer target. I see jets parked on the ramp and ignored, I see hardware shoved in a back room and nobody messes with it, but magically all the work is somehow "done" and we're stuck with broken, inadequate, or completely inferior equipment. In the past 7 years I have not seen a single hardware upgrade to the E-3 mission systems that worked anything close to "as advertised." In fact, I would say that every one of them has had a negative impact on our capability. God help everyone on board if the glass cockpit upgrade is being run out of the same office. Hopefully the F-35 team is more competent than the morons that have wrecked our entire comm suite in the past 3-4 years.

[Albany Rifles]

I most definitely lay a lot of blame with Congress. But lazy engineers (like the ones who signed off on our "new" mirc hardware, or blamed laptops for electrical problems) are a closer target. I see jets parked on the ramp and ignored, I see hardware shoved in a back room and nobody messes with it, but magically all the work is somehow "done" and we're stuck with broken, inadequate, or completely inferior equipment. In the past 7 years I have not seen a single hardware upgrade to the E-3 mission systems that worked anything close to "as advertised." In fact, I would say that every one of them has had a negative impact on our capability. God help everyone on board if the glass cockpit upgrade is being run out of the same office. Hopefully the F-35 team is more competent than the morons that have wrecked our entire comm suite in the past 3-4 years.

Has anyone brought that sitution to the Defense Contract Management Agency? Derfense Contract Auditing Agency? The E-3 life cycle manager and/or product support manager?

Has the Air Force in their E-3 budget line funded the spares needed to fix these parts?

We acquisition folks can't fix what is broken with the system if the field isn't telling us.

There are specified reporting chains for these issues.

And if you chain of command are reporting UP and the system is DOWN then that is fraud. It may show the problem is closer to home.

[Albany Rifles]

Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?

Cool hat

[ArtyEngineer]

AR Reply

And if you chain of command are reporting UP and the system is DOWN then that is fraud. It may show the problem is closer to home.

You would be surprised, or maybe not about how much of that goes on!!!!! Heaven forbid a unit shows its readiness level not where it needs to be!!!

Perfect example: The M777A2 is equiped with an Airbrake system, inexperienced drivers manage to smoke the brakes ALL the fucking time by not doin the whole release parking brake before applying trailer supply sequence prior to movement. Result is brakes lock up and 200 yards down the road you got a flaming mess of fuzed pad caliper and disk. Well that doesnt render teh howitzer non mission capable, it does however constitute a safety issue for movement on public roads (Department of Transportation regs who dont care that the M777A2 is a howitzer, as far as they are concerned it is a trailer of x dimension and Y weight and therefore MUST have servicable airbrakes) also during emplacement of the howitzer not being able to apply the handbrakes is an issue, although degraded procedure is to simply "Chock" the wheels.

Now because the unit will not deadline teh howitzer and put it on teh 026 report they simply order teh parts at 13 Priority and then continue to bitch moan and whine about how the parts are taking so long and also continually bother me looking for some sort of back door hook up on brake parts!!!!!

If they would simply do what they are supposed to, Deadline weapon, show on 026 report order parts at 02 Priority shit would come in quick. If they still want to haul the howitzer around withing the "Training Area fine, but no use of public roads and follow degraded procedures oh yeah and commander takes responsibility by doing the whole Circle X thing on the 5988.

But no that just doesnt happen.

Rant over

Arty

[Albany Rifles]

Arty, to your point.

When I was a company commander, as I have said, I went through NET on the very first M2A1s fielded to the Army. I commanded A Company, my battalion went first in the division and we were the first to get them so therefore….they had the TOW 2 brand new.

Well, the hulls were awesome. I only lost 1 major assembly in 17 months of use. But I had massive turret problems with the turret distribution boxes (TDB) and the TOW 2 system. I understood we were going through teething problems on a new system.

Okay, what started out fun turned ugly quickly. When I went to sign for my brand new vehicles I did a walk around inspection. Then I climbed in mine and had them turn the turret with the gun barrel over the left side to check the moisture indicator in the TDB. Bright blue…it is supposed to be pink. That indicated that there was moisture in the system and the system had to be purged. Checked my entire company and saw the same thing. I guess sitting out for 3 months in the Georgia summer was not a good idea (a point we S4s had made with the PM Bradley rep the previous winter.) Well I told the PM rep I wasn’t signing for the vehicles. He looked at me like I was crazy. I said purge the TDBs and I’ll sign for them. He argued and I walked away. Next thing I have the battalion S4 (the guy what replaced me when I took command) banging on me. Told him to eff off. Same with the BMO. Battalion XO then comes and leans on me. I told him Sir, eff off. Battalion commander comes over and asks me what is wrong with me. I patiently explained to him about all the vehicles were deadlined and needed to be purged and tested before I could sign for them (that is what AR 700-142 says, BTW). He orders me to sign for them so I did. (Did I mention that the XO and BC were both light infantry guys who were getting those jobs in regular units before moving to the Ranger battalion? They had NO concept about logistics.)

For the next 17 months I had constant turret problems….the entire battalion did. But somehow or other my fellow company commanders managed to have OR rates of 95% or better. Me, I was around 90% and I reported whenever something went down. It used to piss off the XO and BC but I said it’s my report and I will report the truth. I also got to order new TDBs on an 02 priority.

The day I left command I dropped my branch transfer paperwork and started working in acquisition not long after.

In 22 years I never handed off to a customer anything which was not at 100%. I will say one of the upsides of the formation of the Acquisition Corps is we got rid of a lot of the deadwood like that PM Rep.

[astralis]

we need you in SAF/AQ!

[Jimmy]

we need you in SAF/AQ!

Agreed. I know these things are written up and tracked by the operators. I spent weeks compiling data to track trends on specific system performance...it was hand-waved away. A significant number of our mission forms include system performance problems. Documentation and reporting on the part of the operators isn't the problem.

But I think Arty's first line nailed it. I've seen firsthand inaccurate performance reporting, but couldn't access the actual proof that it was wrong, so I handed it off to a guy who'll get as pissed off as I was when I saw it. I'm hoping he'll follow up on it, and I'm planning on following up with him in a couple of weeks. This stuff happens all the time. We live in a world of perception above all. Fortunately we can still get the job done, but that won't last forever.

[Albany Rifles]

we need you in SAF/AQ!

Let me fix one service at a time.............;)