What is up with the F-35? Part II

[gf0012-aust]

1. Arty, I am not disagreeing with you...but my question goes to could a lot of those capabilities be palced in more cost efficient drone airframes?

you could produce an enhanced ISR grid without the JSF, but the point is that we're moving into a construct where every fighting platform has the capacity to contribute to the common and combat operating picture. we are not that far off where literally every critical fighting asset (including soldiers) contributes in their own way to informing and providing real time situational appreciation.

as an equiv, when you consider how wired up JSF, the P8's will be and the dedicated AEW/ISR assets are, the picture we know that they will produce is bordering on spectacular - esp against what we can do now. the ISR and capability to decide how, what to do next is pretty significant when looked at in terms of future capabilities

in a similar vein, CAS is about a capability, its no longer about the platform. we already have numerous regular events where the changes in weapons delivery and the rescaling of some weapons systems means that a lot more platforms, including the traditional heavies are delivery precision strike on time, within time and to danger close levels of precision. B52's and B1's have delivered precision CAS to SF regularly - and often because the smaller manned and UAV's could not have due to range and persistence issues.

[Albany Rifles]

Arty & gf0012,

Thanks for the responses. I was not saying not to have the F-35B and its ISR capability. It was truly an open question wondering were we guilding the lily or is there a true need. Sounds like you guys have it nailed. Thanks for the enlightenment.

As for B/1/2/52 for CAS....that works to a point. But a MEU & MEU/SOC needs those F-35s on station when the TF commander says...they don't fall under the ATO at all times....and they can fly off the Gator Navy carriers. They get CAS and CAP without tying up a big deck.

Besides, sometimes you need a gun run...something the B1/2/52 doesn't do so well!

[gf0012-aust]

Arty & gf0012,

Thanks for the responses. I was not saying not to have the F-35B and its ISR capability. It was truly an open question wondering were we guilding the lily or is there a true need. Sounds like you guys have it nailed. Thanks for the enlightenment.

As for B/1/2/52 for CAS....that works to a point. But a MEU & MEU/SOC needs those F-35s on station when the TF commander says...they don't fall under the ATO at all times....and they can fly off the Gator Navy carriers. They get CAS and CAP without tying up a big deck.

Besides, sometimes you need a gun run...something the B1/2/52 doesn't do so well!

ah, but I'm not talking about replacing small CAS, its that CAS is now about capability rather than platform. so the heavies are complimentary - there are any number of instances where the smalls could not get in (range), persist (go around again and reinforce the shot) or loiter. in depth missions where the smalls cannot get there, stay on station and reinforce, (drop, drop and drop again) are the province of the heavies. eg we've had B52's assist on one spot, move on and support further away and come back and reinforce at the ealier locs. even with AAR, smalls don't have that mission flexibility. Small and heavy have their niche benefits.

as you know, the warfighter doesn't care who did it as long as they get it.

similarly, just as ISR used to be the province of Compass "nn", Rivet "nn", Guardrail etc.... we're rapidly moving into an environment where everyone up in the air can be a real ISR node rather than a supporting blip on someones GCCS display. CAS is undergoing the same evolution

[Albany Rifles]

Okay, that works....for Astan. What happens when Astan is happening and Central Ivory Coast flares up and the 37th MEU has to go in and fight against a force that has a bunch of armor thanks to Hugo Chavez? What CAS does the TF CDR have available? Its what flies off of the decks of the Gator Navy carriers...not the Air Force.

So that is a need for that USMC unit.

Dont get stuck in the mind set that we are only going to have COIN fights. I see a lot of mid-range conflicts against Chinese clients vice Soviet clients over next 25 years...and we will face a much more robust ADA environment than we have faced in some time.

F35 gives the USMC the capability it needs.

[gf0012-aust]

Okay, that works....for Astan. What happens when Astan is happening and Central Ivory Coast flares up and the 37th MEU has to go in and fight against a force that has a bunch of armor thanks to Hugo Chavez? What CAS does the TF CDR have available? Its what flies off of the decks of the Gator Navy carriers...not the Air Force.

So that is a need for that USMC unit.

Dont get stuck in the mind set that we are only going to have COIN fights. I see a lot of mid-range conflicts against Chinese clients vice Soviet clients over next 25 years...and we will face a much more robust ADA environment than we have faced in some time.

F35 gives the USMC the capability it needs.

I think we're in agreement, its why I'm emphasising the complimentary issue.

[Jimmy]

2. Jimmy, Okay, so you are an airpower advocate. Are you saying the USMC needs to give up a weapon system which goes to its core abilities to meet the Air Force's needs? When the Marines need a dedicated CAS asset are they going to be able to turn to the Air Force? I don't think so.

The F-35 is not a CAS platform, but it'll do the job. The Marines should've gotten their own airplane to replace the AV-8, based on their unique needs. For political reasons, everyone had to share, impact to the mission be damned.

You don't use a clean fighter for CAS, which means using a fifth-generation fighter is unnecessary. The AF and Navy can justify it because of their mission. The Marines need a rugged bomb truck capable of quick response. What they're getting is a $100M VSTOL F-16.

[USSWisconsin]

The F-35 is not a CAS platform, but it'll do the job. The Marines should've gotten their own airplane to replace the AV-8, based on their unique needs. For political reasons, everyone had to share, impact to the mission be damned.

You don't use a clean fighter for CAS, which means using a fifth-generation fighter is unnecessary. The AF and Navy can justify it because of their mission. The Marines need a rugged bomb truck capable of quick response. What they're getting is a $100M VSTOL F-16.

I get the impression that a modernized A4 Skyhawk would be a good thing for the mission. But that wouldn't properly feed the aerospace industry - too cheap...

[gunnut]

I get the impression that a modernized A4 Skyhawk would be a good thing for the mission. But that wouldn't properly feed the aerospace industry - too cheap...

I would say a modernized A-4 is too small to deliver the bomb load needed. It was a great airframe. Many are still flying. But the MC might need something bigger because sometimes they just might encounter bigger things than low intensity COIN operation.

[gunnut]

Can anyone in the know tell me, without compromising anything, if the F-35 is an agile fighter with capabilities beyond expectation? Or is the F-35 an overweight pig that flies like a brick on fire?

[Albany Rifles]

The F35 can carry more than the F22. It can handle a wide range of loadouts. It's advanced capabilities allow the USMC air to oPerate in all air threat environments...this will help in the long run.

And I believe we are going to be facing more robust AD Threat environments going forward...F35 will let the USMC get the job done n

[Albany Rifles]

I think we're in agreement, its why I'm emphasising the complimentary issue.

Hit me in the head enough times and it sinks in

[jlvfr]

I would say a modernized A-4 is too small to deliver the bomb load needed. It was a great airframe. Many are still flying. But the MC might need something bigger because sometimes they just might encounter bigger things than low intensity COIN operation.

But in these days of all-guided-payloads, that small load might be enough?...

[Stitch]

Can anyone in the know tell me, without compromising anything, if the F-35 is an agile fighter with capabilities beyond expectation? Or is the F-35 an overweight pig that flies like a brick on fire?

Phoenix responded to this a few posts back:

I'm sure most have now seen this. More details on the F-35 kinematic performance:

F-35 Tests Proceed, Revealing F/A-18-Like Performance - Defense News

"Operational pilots should be thrilled with the F-35's performance, Kelly said. The F-35 Energy-Management diagrams, which display an aircraft's energy and maneuvering performance within its airspeed range and for different load factors, are similar to the F/A-18 but the F-35 offers better acceleration at certain points of the flight envelope.

The E-M diagrams are very similar between the F-35B, F-35C and the F/A-18. There are some subtle differences in maximum turn rates and some slight differences in where corner airspeeds are exactly."

And previously from John Beesley:

New Fighter Jet: Controversial Future of the U.S. Fleet | LiveScience

"In the subsonic flight regime, the F-35 very nearly matches the performance of its' larger, more powerful cousin, the F-22 Raptor, Beesley explained. The "subsonic acceleration is about as good as a clean Block 50 F-16 or a Raptor- which is about as good as you can get."

"What Beesley expects will surprise future F-35 pilots is the jets' superb low speed handling characteristics and post-stall manoeuvrability."

Since the F-35 has primarily been put through its paces at lower speeds we don't yet know the details of the high speed regime. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it meets its design goal of "meets or exceeds the F-16". If that is the case, we are looking at an aircraft with the high speed turning performance of an F-16 (or better), the low-speed, nose pointing ability of an F-18 (or better), acceleration better than both, carrying internal weapons, with 5th Gen avionics and VLO, carrying AIM-120D and AIM-9X. That sounds like a very potent BVR and WVR aircraft. As a US taxpayer, these reports sounds very promising. I would think that any Air Force would be happy to have such an aircraft. Now if only they can keep the price down....

[gf0012-aust]

and japan is in:

Lockheed Martin F-35 wins Japan fighter jet deal | Reuters

[Stitch]

and japan is in:

Lockheed Martin F-35 wins Japan fighter jet deal | Reuters

One down, five to go . . . . . .