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  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Jumps don't allow you time to steer. You jump. You look up and if you don't see your big umbrella, you open your reserve chute. Then you hit the ground. On combat jumps, you don't even have time to open your second chute. If your primary fails, you're hamburger.
    I guess I can see the rationale if jumps are commonly very low to the ground. Now that I think about it, most of the jumps are probably taking place at night. No reason to bother with steering if you can't see where you are going. Probably more likely to run into someone else if you are flying forwards and steering than if you just descend straight down.

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    • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
      You can see several differences in design choices for modern designs in each roll by comparing the P-8 to the F-35.

      CAS and Air Interdiction roles performed by a tactical bomber put more emphasis on maneuverability, stealth, and the ability to make high speed dashes. This can help tactical bombers approach radar defended targets by hugging the ground and using terrain features to mask their approach. A tactical bomber has to be able to sneak into and hit specific areas that are often well defended but don't typically move.

      The P-8 as a naval bomber puts far more emphasis on extended range, long loiter times, strong sensors, and signals intelligence. Naval targets aren't as obliging about staying in one spot as a base on land, and thus the ability to stay up in the air long enough to find your target is critical to being able to attack it. Naval bombers also can't take advantage of using terrain to mask their approach, and thus attacking from a long standoff range is preferred so as to avoid having the targets shoot back.

      While you weren't as concerned about ordnance, it plays a role in the design of the aircraft. A tactical bomber can get away with using shorter ranged ordinance like guided free fall bombs, or short ranged missiles, which allows for a low ordinance weight per target hit. A naval bomber attacking from long range makes much greater use of standoff weapons like cruise missiles. While cruise missiles allow a naval bomber to attack from extreme range, they also require that the bomber have sensors powerful enough to identify and track a target at those ranges.

      While cruise missiles combine very long range with very capable sensors of their own, this comes at the cost of large weight and size. A cruise missile with a 500 pound warhead generally weighs in at about 1500 pounds and has much larger dimensions than a guided bomb of equivalent explosive power. This means that naval bombers have to be quite a bit larger than a tactical bomber in order to hit the same number of targets with an equivalent amount of ordinance.
      Gee... Thanks.
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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      • Originally posted by SteveDaPirate View Post
        I guess I can see the rationale if jumps are commonly very low to the ground. Now that I think about it, most of the jumps are probably taking place at night. No reason to bother with steering if you can't see where you are going. Probably more likely to run into someone else if you are flying forwards and steering than if you just descend straight down.
        Most jumps are day time. Night time jumps are a different kettle of fish. You have to be able to be prepared to hit the ground.

        But the reason for low jumps is simple. Why would you want to hang around in the sky for the enemy to machine gun you?
        Chimo

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        • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
          Guys,

          What is the difference between land based naval bomber and regular tactical bomber? I am asking about the design, maneuverability, not the ordnance.
          I believe they use a DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE DESIGN CRITERIA STANDARD for laying out basic standards for the aircraft and MIL-PRF Performance Specification . Navy aircraft will have to be able to survive carrier landings and cat launches and not have stuff fall off and fly another day. (wicked deceleration G's) and deal with constant exposure to a corrosive salt water environment. Fold to fit a Nimitz/Ford class carrier deck/hanger. A land base/USAF don't have this requirement. It will all be laid out in the ICD/CCD/SRD
          Last edited by Dazed; 20 Mar 16,, 23:52.

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          • Originally posted by Doktor View Post
            Guys,

            What is the difference between land based naval bomber and regular tactical bomber? I am asking about the design, maneuverability, not the ordnance.
            For land based naval bombers the mission is usually sea control/maritime patrol/anti-submarine. As such they have to be able to carry large crews, have long loiter time, be able to carry extensive sensor arrays (radar, MAD gear, sonar suites, hydrophone launching facilities) as well as carry extensive weapons (airdrop torpedoes, depth bombs, A2S missiles). Additionally it must be able to fly well at hi altitude and low altitude and be stable in all environments regardless of the weather.


            Tactical bombers take off, go hit a target and return. They can have a simpler design.
            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
            Mark Twain

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            • As for parachutes...watch this video. Other than jumping from a higher altitude than normal for combat operations, this not only shows you what it looks like in the aircraft and in the air. But in the last 45 seconds you see how close everyone is.



              In a combat situation you are just trying to get your ass on the ground and get your weapon out (That is what is in that vertical bag on the left side of each jumper.)

              There are too many folks in too small a place to allow a lot of maneuverability.

              Special Ops forces do use ram air chutes. But when an entire Ranger company goes in they tend to stick with the conventional.

              The following video show a Ranger jump with the opening jumpers...Pathfinders...coming in on ram air. But the follow on waves are straight up mass tactical jumps with conventional chutes.

              Last edited by Albany Rifles; 21 Mar 16,, 18:37.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • Speaking of Airborne, this is the video which got me back in the mid-1970s.

                And this shows the uniforms we wore while in Army back then. No running shoes or PT Gear.

                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                Mark Twain

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                • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                  As for parachutes...watch this video. Other than jumping from a higher altitude than normal for combat operations, this not only shows you what it looks like in the aircraft and in the air. But in the last 45 seconds you see how close everyone is.

                  In a combat situation you are just trying to get your ass on the ground and get your weapon out (That is what is in that vertical bag on the left side of each jumper.)

                  There are too many folks in too small a place to allow a lot of maneuverability.
                  FIRE MISSION Troops in the open, Shell mix. HE/VT WP Continuous fire Over.

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                  • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                    FIRE MISSION Troops in the open, Shell mix. HE/VT WP Continuous fire Over.
                    Dear god that's gotta be terrifying... :-(
                    Supporting or defending Donald Trump is such an unforgivable moral failing that it calls every bit of your judgement and character into question. Nothing about you should be trusted if you can look at this man and find redeemable value

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                    • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                      And this shows the uniforms we wore while in Army back then. No running shoes or PT Gear.
                      Heck yea!! back in the day when we had real men in combat arms. You don't go to war in silk shorts and go-fasters so why would you train in them?

                      5 mile run in boots and utes, just a warm up.

                      30 some odd years later, How are those Knees, hip and back feeling?? (He ask on the day he got the staples out of his knee)

                      If we had known back then what we know today...........

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                      • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        Dear god that's gotta be terrifying... :-(

                        Or another day at the office.

                        There are certain things we try not to think about. Thats why the best soldiers are young and single. We all had that "10ft tall and bulletproof" mentality, where stuff like that happens to other people.

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                        • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                          Or another day at the office.

                          There are certain things we try not to think about. That's why the best soldiers are young and single. We all had that "10ft tall and bulletproof" mentality, where stuff like that happens to other people.
                          It's gotta be like that, or nobody would ever volunteer to be in the Army or the Marines.
                          "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                          • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                            FIRE MISSION Troops in the open, Shell mix. HE/VT WP Continuous fire Over.
                            Which is why almost all airborne drops are done at night at 850 feet...no reserve needed. Or in an environment where intel tells you not much artillery or armor is located (see Arnhem).

                            I may have told this story on here before.

                            When I took command of my company at FT Stewart we were converting to Bradleys about 3 months later. We turned in our M113s and then played light infantry that summer. One of the things about the Infantry units at Stewart is they were dumping grounds for Rangers who could no longer serve in the 1st Battalion 75th Rangers at nearby Hunter AAF. Usually they were for medical reasons where a Soldier could no longer be on jump status but could finish their enlistment in mechanized Infantry. Some were discipline. This caused some friction because these guys had we/they attitude. It started to be a morale problem. I heard the term “Leg!” called out one time too many around the orderly room one day as I reading FM 23-1 Bradley Gunnery. A scuffle ensued and I had had enough.

                            I told the First Sergeant “Company Formation, ASAP!” and kept reading. He came and got me about 15 minutes later and I stepped in front of the company. I held up the Bradley Gunnery FM and told the company I had been reading up on how to use our Bradleys. Now let me share one thing with you. From Chapter 6 I stated (and the following is a straight cut and paste from the FM)…

                            “PARA 6-9. AERIAL TARGETS.
                            e. The paratrooper’s rapid rate of fall makes engaging him difficult (Figure 6-52).

                            To do so, the gunner must—

                            (1) Use the ISU or IBAS as the primary sight.

                            (2) Use the coax machine gun at ranges under 900 meters.

                            (3) Use the 25-mm (HEI-T) at ranges beyond 900 meters.

                            (4) Fire a burst with a lead of two man-heights beneath the dropping paratrooper.”

                            I then turned the company over to the First Sergeant.

                            I had these graphics made from the FM into a poster and placed on the wall next to the Arms Room.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            I didn't hear the word Leg! or any other crap about the superiority of paratroopers anymore.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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                            • Originally posted by Gun Grape View Post
                              There are certain things we try not to think about. Thats why the best soldiers are young and single. We all had that "10ft tall and bulletproof" mentality, where stuff like that happens to other people.
                              It's probably best not to dwell too much on ending up in a situation like this guy if you hook up wrong and your buddy doesn't catch it.

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                              • QUESTION: Did "anti-flash white" paint applied to nuclear bombers actually make a noticeable difference in protecting the aircraft and crew?

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