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A10 vs SU-25

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  • #16

    The Warthog is literally built around its 30-mm General Electric GAU-8 Avenger seven barrel cannon, the most powerful gun ever fitted to an aircraft of this class. The A-10 features eleven underwing/underfuselage hardpoints and can carry 16,000lb or ordinance -- including AGM-65 Maverick anti-armor missiles, cluster bombs, LGBs, and AIM-9 AAMs.

    Summary Copyright Charles M (JetWhiz)



    • #17
      Originally posted by M21Sniper
      The 7 bbl gun from the A-10 fires the extremely powerful 30x173mm cartridge. The gun of the Frogfoot fires a much less powerful round more comparable to the NATO 30mm 'light' round(as used by the Apache, etc).

      The GAU-8/A Avenger cannon is 21 feet long and weighs over 3,000lbs. It has a cyclic rate of fire of 4200 rpm. It has an ammunition capacity of 1176rds of 30mm, typicly loaded in a 'party mix' of 1AP:2HE. With the USAF LASTE system the gun of the A-10 is far more employable and accurate than when it was first introduced.

      The A-10 is also armored to the teeth with a titanium 'bathtub' that completely encircles the pilot.

      The SU-25 is actually based on the loser of the competition that produced the A-10, the Northrop A-9.

      BTW, at low altitude- an A-10 can outturn an F-16C.
      sniper, you make me feel dumb. how do you know all this shit?
      "I'm against picketting, but i dont know how to show it"


      • #18

        A-10/OA-10 Thunderbolt II


        In the Vietnam conflict concentrated small-arms fire, ground-to-air missiles, and other more sophisticated defenses were particularly lethal to aircraft flying close-support missions. This situation resulted in dramatic changes in philosophy for the capabilities of aircraft conducting these missions. A need arose during the Vietnam conflict for a specialized aircraft capable of giving close air support to troops operating in the forward battle area. Needed was a heavily armed aircraft that could respond rapidly to a call for help and had the ability to destroy tanks, artillery batteries, and other types of enemy strongholds. Neither a fast aircraft nor one with long range was required; good maneuverability, extended loiter time in the battle area, and a lethal weapons load were needed. Low cost, easy maintenance with minimum turnaround time, and high survivability in the face of enemy ground fire were other characteristics desired. The aircraft was intended only for daytime operations in fair weather.

        On 6 March, 1967, requests for proposals went to twenty-one companies for design studies on a low-cost attack aircraft given the designation A-X or "Attack-Experimental" aircraft. In the years following 1967, the A-X mission requirements began to change as the threat of Soviet armor and all-weather operations became embedded in military priorities.

        In 1970, the requirements for the A-X mission were changed, and the Air Force issued a new request for proposals (RFP). Detailed requirements for such a close-air- support aircraft were issued by the USAF in May 1970. Six companies responded to the RFP. Fairchild- Republic and Northrop were given contracts for the construction of prototypes to be used in a flyoff competition from which a winner would be selected for production. Northrop's YA-9A and the Republic Aviation Division of Fairchild-Hiller's YA-10A became finalists in the contract bid. The Air Force gave each company funding in order to build prototypes of their aircraft for testing. At the end of the flight and maintenance comparison, on 10 January 1973, the US Air Force announced the selection of the Fairchild aircraft.

        First flight of the aircraft occurred in May 1972, and the first squadron to be equipped with the A-10A became operational in October 1977.

        Since the A-10 was built around the General Electric GAU-8 Avenger 30-mm cannon, its performance in testing was crucial in determining how many A-10's would be built. The GAU-8 Avenger exceeded all expectations. Not only was it extremely accurate, it could fire from 2100 to 4200 shots per minute without complications. The 30-mm projectile has two times the range, three times the mass, and half the time of flight of projectiles carried on CAS aircraft comparable to the A-10. After designers integrated the Avenger into the A-10's design, Fairchild-Republic made preparations for full production. Technicians at NASA's Ames Research Center provided additional wind tunnel tests of Fairchild's YA-10A late in 1973. Here, the A-10 received its final design refinements before entering mass production. As Fairchild delivered the first units, the A-10's unusual appearance and odd flight characteristics led to its nickname of the "Warthog".

        The first production A-10 flew in October 1975. Delivery of this model began in March, 1976 to the 355th Tactical Training Wing at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Ariz. Fairchild Republic produced A-10s in their Farmington, N.Y., plant for 11 years. At peak production, 12 of these rugged aircraft rolled out each month. A-10 production ceased in 1984, twelve years after the first YA-10 rolled out of Fairchild-Republic's factory in 1972. In those twelve years, 715 A-10's were built and, with the exception of the two prototypes and one tandem-seat modification, the basic airframe design has remained unchanged.

        Designed specially for the close air support mission and with the ability to combine large military loads, long loiter and wide combat radius, the A-10 proved to be vital assets to America and its allies during Operation Desert Storm. In the Gulf War, A-10s, with a mission capable rate of 95.7 percent, flew 8,100 sorties and launched 90 percent of the AGM-65 Maverick missiles. A-10's were seldom grounded due to maintenance problems or conditions unsuitable for flying during the Operation DESERT STORM. No other aircraft could carry as much ordnance over a target for so long, doling out and taking as much punishment, and return to an unimproved field to turn around quickly and strike at an enemy again.

        According the Iraqi POWs, the single most recognizable and feared aircraft at low altitude was the Thunderbolt II. This black-colored jet was seen as deadly accurate, rarely missing its target. Seen conducting bombing raids three or four times a day, the A-10 was a seemingly ubiquitous threat. Although the actual bomb run was terrifying, the aircraft loitering around the target prior to target acquisition caused as much, if not more, anxiety since the Iraqi soldiers were unsure of the chosen target.

        *End Paste*



        • #19

          GAU-8 Avenger

          The GAU-8/A Avenger is a 30 mm, seven-barrel Gatling gun that is mounted exclusively on the United States Air Force's A-10 Thunderbolt II. It is the largest (it is the size of a Volkswagen Beetle), heaviest and most powerful aircraft gun in the United States military. Developed specifically to be a "tank buster", the gun can deliver a rate of fire of an astonishing 3,900 shots per minute.

          The gun usually fires a mix of ammunition: utilizing four High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) rounds followed by a Armor Piercing Incendiary (API) round. However, the GAU-8 is also capable of firing rounds made from depleted uranium.

          Developed as part of the A-10 program by Fairchild Republic, both the aircraft and the gun entered service in 1977. The gun is no longer in production. It was produced by General Electric, though General Dynamics Armament Systems is now responsible for support.

          A-10 Thunderbolt II

          The A-10/OA-10 Thunderbolt II, often known as the "Warthog," is the first US Air Force aircraft specially designed for close air support of ground forces. This simple, effective and survivable twin-engine jet aircraft can be used against all ground targets, including tanks and other armored vehicles.

          The A-10/OA-10 have excellent maneuverability at low air speeds and altitude, and are highly accurate weapons-delivery platforms. They can loiter near battle areas for extended periods of time and operate under 1,000-foot ceilings (303.3 m) with 1.5-mile (2.4 km) visibility. Their wide combat radius and short takeoff and landing capability permit operations in and out of locations near front lines. Using night vision goggles, A-10/OA-10 pilots can conduct their missions during darkness.

          Thunderbolt IIs have Night Vision Imaging Systems (NVIS), goggle compatible single-seat cockpits forward of their wings and a large bubble canopy which provides pilots all-around vision. The pilots are protected by 900 pounds (400 kg) of titanium armor (referred to as a "titanium bathtub") that also protects parts of the flight-control system. The redundant primary structural sections allow the aircraft to enjoy better survivability during close air support than did previous aircraft.

          The aircraft can survive direct hits from armor-piercing and high explosive projectiles up to 23mm. Their self-sealing fuel cells are protected by internal and external foam and are designed not to explode if shot. Manual systems back up their redundant hydraulic flight-control systems. This permits pilots to fly and land when hydraulic power or a wing is lost.

          The Thunderbolt II can be serviced and operated from bases with limited facilities near battle areas. Many of the aircraft's parts are interchangeable left and right, including the engines, main landing gear and vertical stabilizers.

          Avionics equipment includes communications, inertial navigation systems, fire control and weapons delivery systems, target penetration aids and night vision goggles. Their weapons delivery systems include heads-up displays that indicate airspeed, altitude, dive angle, navigation information and weapons aiming references; a low altitude safety and targeting enhancement system (LASTE) which provides constantly computing impact point free-fall ordnance delivery; and Pave Penny laser-tracking pods under the fuselage. The aircraft also have armament control panels, and infrared and electronic countermeasures to handle surface-to-air missile threats. Installation of the Global Positioning System is currently underway for all aircraft.

          The Thunderbolt II's 30mm GAU-8/A Gatling gun fires at a rate of 3,900 rounds per minute and can defeat an wide array of ground targets up to and including heavily armored main battle tanks. Some of their other equipment includes an inertial navigation system, electronic countermeasures, target penetration aids, self-protection systems, and AGM-65 Maverick and AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles.

          The first production A-10A was delivered to Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona, in October 1975. It was designed specially for the close air support mission and had the ability to combine large military loads, long loiter and wide combat radius, which proved to be vital assets to the United States and its allies during Operation Desert Storm and Operation Noble Anvil. In the Gulf War, A-10s had a mission capable rate of 95.7 percent, flew 8,100 sorties and launched 90 percent of the AGM-65 Maverick missiles.
          The A-10s were an unwelcome addition to the Air Force arsenal. Air Force officials prized the high-flying, high-performance F-15 and F-16 jets, and were determined to leave the dirty work of close air support to Army helicopters.

          In the 1980s, military planners intended the A-10s to fly low, slow missions to counter divisions of Soviet tanks stationed in eastern Europe.

          In 1991, the planes proved their mettle in the Persian Gulf War, destroying more than 1,000 tanks, 2,000 military vehicles and 1,200 artillery pieces. Five A-10s were shot down during the war, far fewer than military planners expected.

          The aircraft again saw service in the 1999 Kosovo War, but due to the rules of engagement imposed by the Clinton administration, which was paranoid about having an American aircraft shot down and thus possibly taking casualties, the aircraft did not perform well. During the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan A-10's did not take part in the initial stages. However, they were later based at Bagram air base and took part in subsequent operations, including Operation Anaconda in March 2002. Due to far less restrictive rules of engagement, the aircraft performed a great deal better than in 1999. Early in 2003, the aircraft saw service over Iraq again when America and Britain invaded the country and deposed Saddam Hussein. Sixty A-10s were deployed, and one was shot down near Baghdad International Airport by Iraqi fire late in the campaign.

          The A-10 is scheduled to stay in service with the USAF until 2028, when it will be replaced by the Joint Strike Fighter.

          *End Paste*



          • #20
            Forgot one......


            Northrop YA-9

            The Northrop YA-9 was a prototype attack aircraft developed for the USAF, but passed over in preference for the Fairchild YA-10 that became the A-10 Thunderbolt II in service.

            Both aircraft were designed in response to an air force requirement for a Close Air Support (CAS) aircraft that could operate from forward positions on a battlefield. This meant an aircraft that would need to be able to operate from relatively rough fields, carry heavy armour, and be able to loiter over target areas. Apart from aircraft themselves, the A-X programme was also developing a powerful cannon for the winning plane to carry. Eventually, this would result in the GAU-8 Avenger, but for trials, the YA-9 and YA-10 were both equipped with the smaller M61 Vulcan.

            It is alleged that the YA-9 more strongly impressed the Soviets than the US Air Force, and the Sukhoi Su-25 was largely based on spy footage of this aircraft.

            A fly-off of the two prototypes took place October 10 and December 9 1973, with the YA-10 declared the winner on January 18 1973. The two YA-9 prototypes were subsequently relegated to NASA for continued flight testing before being quickly retired. One is preserved at the March Field Museum at March Air Force Base, and the other at the Castle Air Museum at Atwater, California. Before going to the museums, the YA-9s' custom-built engines were removed and were later mated to a C-8 Buffalo airframe as part of the NASA-Boeing joint QSRA study into a quiet short-haul commercial aircraft.

            *End Paste*



            • #21
              You can add all the cut and paste links you want HawkEye, or you can go to you can behave yourself), and ASK the former NCOIC of Hill AFB Hog Depot, who is currently writing a book on the A-10.

              He posts under the name Diceman, and he knows more about the A-10 than the rest of the world combined. He will answer any and all questions you may have about the A-10, including the full history of the GAU-8/A, and it's development.

              The A-X requirement came before the Avenger.


              • #22
                griftadan, thanx for the compliment. :)

                I am lucky enough to be board admin at , the online home of the A-10.

                Therefore i've had tremendous access to the Warthog community, and have learned a great deal about the most lethal tank killer ever devised. :)

                It's a great site- feel free to check it out.


                • #23
                  these two weapons were intended for different goals and uses. Americans were worried about number of Russian tanks in Europe so they wanted something to take care of it. A-10 is a "close air support" and tanks were always its primary targets. The smaller Su-25 is more intended for broader use than only tanks. You can see it even from the weaponry systems. The basic Su-25 weapon are unguided rockets, not a gun....

                  Each does what it was intended for.....


                  • #24
                    The A-10's mission IS CAS, but why do you assume that it's primary targets are tanks? It's primary targets are anything the grunts on the ground call to be attacked. And why do you think the Su-25's main weapons are unguided rockets? the Su-25 can carry: Cannon: 1 GSh-6-N-30 30mm rotary
                    AS-7/9/11/12, AA-8 Aphid, FAB-250, UV-32-57, FAB-500, 500kg LGB, FAB-250

                    Those include A2A. A2G, rockets, missiles, etc...
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.


                    • #25
                      Both aircraft are intended to fill the same role.

                      The A-10 just fills it better.


                      • #26
                        I was just thinking of making a thread about whether the A-10 or Su-25 was the better CAS plane, but I see someone else has done it already. Anyone care to add to this debate without getting carried away with the GAU-8?

                        Here are some new questions to consider:
                        -Which plane is more reliable?
                        -Which plane is more worth the money?


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                          the Su-25 can carry: Cannon: 1 GSh-6-N-30 30mm rotary

                          The Su-25 CANNOT carry a 30mm rotary cannon.

                          The Su-25's built-in gun is the twin-barrel 30mm GSh-30 cannon.

                          The Su-25 can also carry two SPPU-22-1 pods (each with one twin-barrel 23mm GSh-23L cannon and 260 rounds) or two SPPU-687 pods (each with one single barrel 30mm GSh-301 cannon and 150 rounds).
                          Last edited by Shipwreck; 15 Oct 08,, 17:08.


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Fury View Post
                            I suppose the SU-25 has the same cannon as the BMP-2 and 3 only a twin barrelled configuration.
                            BMP-2 uses the single-barrel 30mm 2A42 cannon.

                            BMP-3 uses the single-barrel 30mm 2A72 cannon.

                            Originally posted by Fury View Post
                            I have a shell on my desk that is 30x165, where is this from? there are no markings visible probably worn off.
                            Electric-primed : aircraft and naval applications

                            Percussion-primed : land-based applications
                            Last edited by Shipwreck; 15 Oct 08,, 17:24.


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Anon View Post
                              There is also APDSDU ammunition that is used in the GoalKeeper CIWS that uses the same GAU-8/A gun of the A-10. That ammunition has a Mv of 1,280 m/s (4,200fps) and a projectile weight of 325 grams.
                              APDS-T :
                              * projectile mass : 225 grams
                              * muzzle velocity : 1,225 mps
                              * muzzle energy : 168,820 joules


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Proyas View Post
                                I was just thinking of making a thread about whether the A-10 or Su-25 was the better CAS plane, but I see someone else has done it already. Anyone care to add to this debate without getting carried away with the GAU-8?

                                Here are some new questions to consider:
                                -Which plane is more reliable?
                                -Which plane is more worth the money?
                                Question 1 - To close to tell
                                Question 2- Irelevant. Nobody else except the US has A-10 and they can afford it.