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F-15C vs. Su-30MKI

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  • Im having a hard time visualizing what Janes is saying.

    We do need a picture.

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    • you make a good point highsea, but, couldn't they position something with a smaller min. range, that doesn't rely on IR? like a missile with an active-seeker, i don't know, another model of the R-27 perhaps, also, the bigger target, would be the engines, for the aircraft that is chasing, but you can still get the heat sig from the engines of the chasing aircraft behind you, albiet it will be a significantly smaller target, also, don't forget the heta that is on the actual aircraft, while performing moves that require high-maneuverability, the friction generated by the aircraft and the air will cause the body to heat up, also, if you're going at a high speed, the body itself, will have a rather large IR sig, so, instead of the engines, it can just actually use the planes body for a sig

      also, if your chasing some one, and you fire the missile, it has to catch up to him, while if you're running away, the aircraft moves toward the missile and the missile moves toward the aircraft, imagine how much time saved, also, no time for the pilot to pull-out unless he's from a far distance

      just my thoughts, so, what do you think, make sense?
      for MOTHER MOLDOVA

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      • Whats better a missile that can be fired backward attached with 5-6 other AA misiles for making a shot in case a fighter comes from behind before turning so taht the u get more time to turn back and fire another or just run away. or the second case of just trying to turn back and run away on seeing the aircraft without having the extra time that the rearward fired missile can give u. ??
        Also we need to analyse the fact that both aircrafts will be flying in the opposite direction of the missile fire. (so the missile range is decreased with the speed too.) but at the same time the chances of the aircraft it was fired on arent that bright too as the aircraft is moving towards the misile.Can some expert comment on how will the changed direction impact considering all these factors combined.

        Comment


        • well, if an IR guided missile is launched on an aircraft that is coming head on, then the odds are stacked in the favour of the aircraft.
          At a head on launch, not only the missile has lower IR signature of its target but the missile also has to modify its course at higher angles of turn against a target on which it is locked on, at comparitively lower signature.

          Also a missile's speed would increase with the distance it covers. So just after the launch from the aircraft, the speed of the missile would be lesser. If the target is coming head on, then the distance would be decreasing.

          Compare that to a launch on the target that is moving away from you. The missile has ample amount of signature, and ample amount of time to build up speed, and the rate of turn would be comparitively lower.

          It would be much better explained with the help of a diagram. I will try and make an appropriate one asap.
          Last edited by ASG; 09 Apr 05,, 12:30.
          Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Maximus
            well, if an IR guided missile is launched on an aircraft that is coming head on, then the odds are stacked in the favour of the aircraft.
            At a head on launch, not only the missile has lower IR signature of its target but the missile also has to modify its course at higher angles of turn against a target on which it is locked on, at comparitively lower signature.

            Also a missile's speed would increase with the distance it covers. So just after the launch from the aircraft, the speed of the missile would be lesser. If the target is coming head on, then the distance would be decreasing.

            Compare that to a launch on the target that is moving away from you. The missile has ample amount of signature, and ample amount of time to build up speed, and the rate of turn would be comparitively lower.

            It would be much better explained with the help of a diagram. I will try and make an appropriate one asap.
            makes good sense
            But in spite of being ineffective in kills it keeps the enemy aircraft buzy and so at least it will give some chance to the aircraft to change its course (while the enemy is evading the missile) and fire another shot.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ajaybhutani
              Whats better a missile that can be fired backward attached with 5-6 other AA misiles for making a shot in case a fighter comes from behind before turning so taht the u get more time to turn back and fire another or just run away. or the second case of just trying to turn back and run away on seeing the aircraft without having the extra time that the rearward fired missile can give u. ??
              Also we need to analyse the fact that both aircrafts will be flying in the opposite direction of the missile fire. (so the missile range is decreased with the speed too.) but at the same time the chances of the aircraft it was fired on arent that bright too as the aircraft is moving towards the misile.Can some expert comment on how will the changed direction impact considering all these factors combined.
              if i interpreted what you said correctly, you're saying the same thing i am, a missile that is heading towards you and you towards it is very hard to deke, is that what you were trying to say?

              but there would be a sufficient IR sig for the seeker, but tell me the chances of you outmaneuvering one, think about it, you're maybe 30-50 meters behind an aircraft, going at about Mach 1.5 for example, in a dogfight, you try to get a target, he launches his rear-firing missile, because of the heat sig of the bosy(you know, you're maneuvering, all the heat generated, afternburner etc.) now this missile is coming at you starting at a speed of maybe Mach 1 for the first 1-2 seconds, and after that accelerates to Mach 2.5(it doesn't take long for a missile to attain it's top speed, distance doesn't really matter) you think you have time to think, really imagine, the missile coming towards you at Mach 2.5 at an altitude of say at 2000 meters, 332.5*2.5=831.25 meters in one second, 30/831.25=0.04 seconds, 50 meters=0.06 seconds, equates to BOOM, lol also, that's in the beginning once the missile gets to full speed, if it gets to full speed, then it's Mach 4
              for MOTHER MOLDOVA

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dima
                if i interpreted what you said correctly, you're saying the same thing i am, a missile that is heading towards you and you towards it is very hard to deke, is that what you were trying to say?

                but there would be a sufficient IR sig for the seeker, but tell me the chances of you outmaneuvering one, think about it, you're maybe 30-50 meters behind an aircraft, going at about Mach 1.5 for example, in a dogfight, you try to get a target, he launches his rear-firing missile, because of the heat sig of the bosy(you know, you're maneuvering, all the heat generated, afternburner etc.) now this missile is coming at you starting at a speed of maybe Mach 1 for the first 1-2 seconds, and after that accelerates to Mach 2.5(it doesn't take long for a missile to attain it's top speed, distance doesn't really matter) you think you have time to think, really imagine, the missile coming towards you at Mach 2.5 at an altitude of say at 2000 meters, 332.5*2.5=831.25 meters in one second, 30/831.25=0.04 seconds, 50 meters=0.06 seconds, equates to BOOM, lol also, that's in the beginning once the missile gets to full speed, if it gets to full speed, then it's Mach 4

                Actually with mazmus's post i m bound to change my beliefs on this. The AoA increases considerably when the missile and the aircraft are moving towards each other.u can draw simple figures for both cases and see. The reduced RCS diminishes the performance of the missile further
                Another added disadvantage will be that the Readward radars are much smaller in scan range and thus if the two planes are comparable theres definitely no use of keeping the missile as the enemy would have already made the shot. mch before u being able to lock him. the only advantage will come in while fighting with uttterly infireor planes. (as for these planes the aircraft will have a chance to fire the Rearward firing missiles for self defence and later turn back to attack him.
                Last edited by ajaybhutani; 10 Apr 05,, 07:06.

                Comment


                • "if i interpreted what you said correctly, you're saying the same thing i am, a missile that is heading towards you and you towards it is very hard to deke, is that what you were trying to say?"

                  That's actually the opposite of what he was saying.

                  Comment


                  • Dima, whats "deke" ??

                    Comment


                    • ajay, we're not talking about RCS, we're talking IR sig

                      the disadvantage of a smaller radar range? well, you're dogfighting in the first place if you want to use this missile

                      also, wouldn't it scare you if you knew that if you got the target locked-on, he could still hit you and destroy you, that would make you significantly more cautious

                      also, think about the response time, i mean, look at the stats, less than one tenth of a second, if you have an aircraft on your 6 and he fires a missile at you, you can at least use chaffs, flares, towed-decoys etc.


                      unlike if a missile is heading head-on for you

                      deke=out-maneuver, move out of the way etc.

                      you've never geard of that word?
                      for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dima
                        ajay, we're not talking about RCS, we're talking IR sig
                        RCS will be used till the missile is guided by the radar. later it will shift to its own seeker which will play the role of the IR(if its the IR seeker).for firing the shot we need to see the plane first.
                        the disadvantage of a smaller radar range? well, you're dogfighting in the first place if you want to use this missile
                        We will dogfight only if the figher survives the BVR attack on its ass first.
                        also, wouldn't it scare you if you knew that if you got the target locked-on, he could still hit you and destroy you, that would make you significantly more cautious
                        But u have already lost the half battle if he gets the lock.

                        also, think about the response time, i mean, look at the stats, less than one tenth of a second, if you have an aircraft on your 6 and he fires a missile at you, you can at least use chaffs, flares, towed-decoys etc.

                        unlike if a missile is heading head-on for you

                        deke=out-maneuver, move out of the way etc.

                        you've never geard of that word?
                        outmanouvering will be quite easy in this case.

                        Comment


                        • Most of the time given to get out the way will be due to the delay between release and motor firing.

                          Comment


                          • yes, but are we not talking about a dogfight scenario, this missile cannot be used at BVR ranges

                            you may have may have lost half of the battle, but the opponent has lost the battle

                            think about it, you can still deploy your chaff, flares, towed-decoys etc.

                            but if a missile is heading directly towards you, you cannot deploy any flares etc.

                            outmaneuvering will be easy in this case? we're talking about 0.06 seconds of reaction time at 50 meters, and 0.03 seconds at 30 meters, i mean,really, what are your chances, lol
                            do you understand what "deking" is now?
                            for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                            Comment


                            • How exactly is it you're targetting this aft facing missile to begin with?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                                How exactly is it you're targetting this aft facing missile to begin with?
                                Supposedly the missile's seeker can be slaved to the aft facing radar for cueing. (Also the helmet sight, of course)

                                I am getting more than a little annoyed with this completely asinine scenario of a dogfight at 30-50 meters at Mach 1.5, using a missile with a minimum engagement distance of 1km. Once again, fantasy has superceded reality in this wonderful world of cyberspace.
                                "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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