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  • #76
    "Nobody mentioned Soviet advisors in this case. We were talking about the armament of the MiG's and the nature of the shoot-downs"

    Later model Mig-21's also lacked guns like the early F-4's did.

    Apparently the russians stole our bad ideas, as well as the good ones. ;)

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    • #77
      I think both the americans and russians stole technology from each other. The russians have developed a lot of stuff themselves, some of which america has still not developed. Like for eg: their project to land a plane the size of boeing 747 in water, It actually did work, but at that time the soviet union collapsed. Then the project was scrapped. Even the nuclear submarine was first developed by them. Check out history channel where this is shown. They were also the first to go into space. So, credit is due where it is, And also americans achievement of going to moon first that no one else has achieved is also an accomplishment in itself. The russians still have technology that is superior to the americans in certain areas, and that is after the USSR got bankrupt. Russians are great theoritist's and americans are more practical. Thats what I have inferred.
      __________________________________________________ ________
      US, India and Israel. Together we will defeat terrorism.
      I prefer communists to islamic terrorists, atleast I know where my enemy is!

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      • #78
        Even the nuclear submarine was first developed by them. Check out history channel where this is shown
        The first one was USS Nautilus. They may have come up with a design before us, but we put our boat in the water first.

        The russians still have technology that is superior to the americans in certain areas, and that is after the USSR got bankrupt.
        All I can think of is Rocket Engines.

        Could you name any others?

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        • #79
          Russians have always made kick ass rocket motors.

          Comment


          • #80


            “What? Many pilots were shot down in 'Nam cuz the MiGs had guns and the F-4's didn't.”

            Most VPAF MiG-21s were the MiG-21PF which had no guns. And most VPAF kills were on planes which had guns. The F-105 has a 20mm vulcan cannon for example. So many VPAF pilots were robbed of kills or shot down because they had 2 R-13s which rarely found the mark and no guns to fall back on. The USA had more reliable weapons and of course more planes which carried guns.

            “As for the IAF kills, they are all done with guns except for 1 which was shot with a Shafrir missile”

            Think fighting a guy with armor carrying a sword while you have your hands. The R-13 was unreliable and the majority of the EAF/SYAAF MiG-21s lacked guns. So once the R-13s missed the MiG-21 in most cases had to turn around as he was out of options to engage. Only the MiG-21F-13 and MiG-21MF has guns and those were only around in very small numbers but still had the worthless R-13.

            The Mirage III was a far better combat airplane in the 1960-1980s then the MiG-21 was. The Mirage III has better avionics and a better range along with better weapons and payload.


            Last edited by troung; 09 Jan 04,, 07:01.
            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

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            • #81
              Just to summurise what you all theoretised here...... Many here claimed that SU-MKI is worth nothing against F-15, while it is quite stupid to do so until an actual results are obtained. So lets hope US will test F-22 with SU-30MKI next year. It will be itneresting to see how generation 5 will handle generation 4+. If even one F-22 is shot down then its superiority is quite questionable agains further modifications of SU Flanker.

              Regarding the stealthy features of F-22 Raptor it is a questionable quality until it is actually tested against modern Russian radars.
              My belief is based on an article in Russian military export magazine about investigation of evacuated wreckages of THREE F-117 (Americans have admitted then only one but who believes to military?) from Yugoslavia of which one was apparently shot down with BUK missile. This was very precious information for Russian military experts and they made a full investigation on the all three cases. The report on the investigation made by Russian experts concludes that F-117 was visible with old radars with low frequency and long-waves used by old BUK. This type of radars are not used since early 70-es as they are quite larger in size. However most of the modern and smaller radar designs used for missiles and aircrafts were unable to detect F-117 beyond 10km range.

              They also have studies the material of F-117 under modern Russian radar and reported its high efficiency in most used radar wave spectrums. The report suggested modification to Russian radars to widen wave spectrums to handle F-117 type technologies. Sorry I can not spot it to you guys as it is in Russian language and issued for Arab clients.


              /WPS Summary: The Pentagon announced results of the joint war games of the U.S. and Indian air force last Thursday. The outcome of the first dogfight shocked the USAF - Su fighters displayed their overwhelming superiority./

              WPS Subject: SU-30MKI FIGHTERS RUSSIA HAS MANUFACTURED FOR INDIA HAVE DISPLAYED THEIR OVERWHELMING SUPERIORITY OVER F-15C EAGLE U.S. FIGHTERS IN A TRAINING FIGHT

              The Pentagon announced results of the joint war games of the U.S. and Indian air force last Thursday. India's Su-30MKI fighters manufactured in Russia and Jaguar assault planes will fly to the Anchorage Point airbase in Alaska on June 4; in late 2004 F-16 fighters of the United States will pay a visit to the Gwalior base in the State of Madhya Pradesh, India. The joint war games, which were recently conducted in India, when the best Russian and U.S. fighters met in an air combat for the first time, encouraged the cooperation between the Indian and U.S. air forces. The outcome of the first dogfight shocked the Americans - Su fighters displayed their overwhelming superiority.

              Four F-15C Eagle fighters of the 315th Air Division based in Eaglestone (Texas) represented the USA. It should be noted that pilots of this division have combat experience; large war games of the NATO air force entitled Gun Smoke are arranged at this airbase twice a year. Special Agressor squadrons, equipped with planes and helicopters imitating the aircraft of potential foes are involved in similar maneuvers. Similar exercises are imitating the tactical environment, maximally approximated to combat. (...)

              The USA agreed to send its best fighters to India only after they had got guarantees that Su-30MKI, the most up-to-date fighters produced in Russia would take part in the war games. This was the first occasion when the combat properties of the best Western and the best Russian planes could be compared in a duel. Results of the war games stunned the U.S. Air Force command. It has been considered so far that the perfect performance characteristics typical of the Su family aircraft are made up for with the excellent airborne equipment the U.S. planes have. Radars installed at F-15C fighters hypothetically detect an enemy earlier than a U.S. plane is detected. This gives a significant advantage - it saves time, required for homing and launching a missile. However, the Indian pilots transformed U.S. ideas of the tactics in fighting aviation. Using the passive infrared scanners, which may detect a smoldering cigarette in a thick forest at the distance of 30 km, Su-30 fighters stealthily came up to the U.S. fighters to reach the distance of an aimed shot from an airborne cannon! A heavier and, therefore, less maneuverable Eagle fighter have few chances to survive in a close combat. As reported by the Indian command, the Americans were dropped at least 20 times.

              Besides, it turned out that the Russian airborne radars are better than the vaunted U.S.-made radars. The former enabled to detect F-15 planes at the distance of up 60 km even against the mountainous background. The enemy's radars were merely "blind" under similar circumstances, not seeing a target against the backdrop of multiple radio beam reflections from the mountain ledges.

              The tactics displayed by the Indian pilots became another surprise for the Americans. Air Marshal Michael Mcmahon, Vice Chief of India's Air Staff told us: "The Americans were expecting us to act applying the fighting aviation according to the Western doctrine. However, we chose the Soviet model and, as a result, gained the upper hand over our opponents." In the outcome, fighters manufactured by Sukhoi Design Bureau were in absolute advantage. They won two of each three duels they've been to.

              The U.S. Air Force Command is seriously perplexed by results of the exercises. Besides, at the U.S. initiative the maneuvers scheduled for 2004 will be conducted according to the extended program. Thus, F-16 Fighting Falcon, the major tactical fighters in the West, will participate in the exercises to be held in India against MiG-29 fighters, their counterparts which are in service with the Indian Air Force. The Hindus are seriously interested in that, since falcon fighters make the basis of the Air Force of Pakistan, which is India's potential enemy. In addition, a couple of AWACS planes will be involved in the exercises as well. The Hindus want to test efficiency of this system before deciding to purchase A-50 planes of joint Russian-Israeli production. Il-78 aircraft, which recently were purchased from Russia, will participate in a nonstop flight to Alaska for the first time in history of the Indian Air Force.

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              • #82
                They will PR Su-27 over F-15 to squeeze more money for F-22
                (that is infro from "Sukhoj" company)
                Last edited by lurker; 22 Jun 04,, 01:08.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by lurker
                  They will PR Su-27 over F-15 to squeeze more money for F-22
                  (that is infro from "Sukhoj" company)
                  it might be an explanation as well. Political play showing that we are naked and we need spening for a new hardware with price tag of 100mln+ .

                  When I posted this article. I din't insist that SU and other Russian hardware are superior, moreover I believe that in general Russian and American equipment had been at parity until mid 90-es. I just posted this to wash the face of some bullshitters who state their stupid oppinions without having any material evidence.... things like - Russian missiles are inpresice, or hardware blows... and etc...

                  Russian and Americans had different strategies and therefore their airforce differed a lot. If you see the structure of Soviet Air Force you would notice that most emphasis was made on short-range interceptors like Mig-29, not on long-range SU family. This was because Russians did not expect air engagements far from their borders or airfields. In the comming battle they relied on Nuclear. To the opposite US always had more of a long-range and havy fighters.

                  There were many approaches.... US traditionally relied on long-range rockets, while Russians had been outperforming in maneuvrability.... it proved right in early technology stage conflicts like Vietnam.

                  What I believe is good is that Russians did not buy into expensive but not very efficient Stealth Technology.... from reports which I read I come to conclusion that it is easier to modify radar systems and upgrade sensitivity than boosting all that money in "invisibility"... there is no invisible object flying... Today the problem is that long-wave Radars do not fit Russian missiles and onboard radars... (size limits plus analog vs. digital) ... however resolving this would be far easier and cheaper than inventing the Stealth.

                  Most probably they would not test F-22 against SU-30MKI, not to risk compromising the project - in such test too much would be expected from F-22 and even smalest failure would seem dramatic

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                  • #84
                    SEEMS LIKE INDIANS RELIED ON PASSIVE INFRARED IN TRACKING F-15 AND COME PRETTY CLOSE WITH THEIR RADARS OFF.... another argument that detection capabilities evolve faster than development of a stealthy capabilites.... Conclusion - Russia is far better to apply only those stealthy featires which can be copied easily not focusing much of resources to match americans in this dimention.....


                    Washington Outlook

                    Taken by Surprise

                    Edited by David Bond
                    187 words
                    12 July 2004
                    Aviation Week & Space Technology
                    21
                    Volume 161, Number 2
                    English
                    (c) 2004 McGraw-Hill, Inc.

                    Reverberations from this spring's Cope India air-to-air exercises, which produced anecdotal accounts of victories by Indian-flown Su-30MKs over U.S.-flown F-15Cs, are continuing. While top Air Force officials say they are bound by security rules not to discuss the event, they disclose that the F-15s, from Alaska, were standard aircraft and not equipped with long-range active electronically scanned array radars. These radars are designed to find small and stealthy targets such as cruise missiles at tactically useful ranges. But advocates of better, newer fighters for the U.S. Air Force say several problems emerged from the training skirmish. The F-15's big radar signature increases its vulnerability to the Russian-built AA-10 Alamo air-to-air missile. Moreover, tests show that the F-15 has an infrared signature "three times that of most fighters," a specialist in fighter tactics says.

                    That leaves it open to flank attacks by an Su-30 operating in a passive mode, with its radar off, while relying on IR sensors for targeting.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Only 1 F-117 has been lost to enemy fire. All the rest are still listed as active tail numbers, so we still have them, and they still fly.

                      The SU really doesn't have a lot of room left for improvement, it is a legacy design that's been tweaked pretty close to the edge of what it's capable of.

                      Besides new electronics and 3D nozzles it's pretty much been maxed out.

                      The F-22 is just entering service, and is at the oposite end of that spectrum. It has all the room for growth that the ole' SU-27 once had.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        On spring Cope a few things are important to remember.

                        The F-15s were outnumbered, always by at least 2:1.

                        The F-15s did not have AIM-9X.

                        The F-15s did not have AWACS or Prowler support, which they'd have in a real wartime scenario.

                        Snoozing the radar is a great way to close undetected......unless there is an AWACS around.

                        Also, the radar of the F-22 will not show up on a standard RWR set, so the F-22 does not have to snooze the radar to remain stealthy.

                        To the best of my knowledge the Eagles used at Spring Cope WERE equipped with the APG-63(V)2 AESA radar.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by M21Sniper
                          The SU really doesn't have a lot of room left for improvement, it is a legacy design that's been tweaked pretty close to the edge of what it's capable of.

                          You seem to have forgotten about the Su 33/34/35's.
                          And putting the F15 anywhere bear the Su30 is quite ridculous.
                          Indian pilots flying Su30MKI's won 90% of the engagements they had with Amwrican pilots flying F15's.

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                          • #88
                            Indian pilots flying Su30MKI's won 90% of the engagements they had with Amwrican pilots flying F15's.
                            True, but they had far less F-15's than the troop of Indian fighters, and they were not in battle formation.

                            1 on 1 MKI's will win (with this and older versions of F-15's), but on a battle formation, it would be different!
                            A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

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                            • #89
                              What Jay said.

                              If you take away AWACS, Jamming, AIM-9X, and outnumber F-15s with SU-30MkIs with the quality of pilots that the Indians have(arguably among the very best in the world), you SHOULD smoke the Eagles, don't you think?

                              If you couldn't, then it would mean you're facing the F-22........lol.

                              The SU-33 is a OLDER naval fighter, the SU-35 is just a russian version of the MkI(more or less), and not as capable, and the SU-37 is unfunded and probably IS the max of what a Flanker can be.

                              Like i said, the ACTIVE Eagle would give a SU-37 or any Flanker all it could handle. You have to remember that the F-15C has not been upgraded in over a decade. It is an old plane with high miles and obsolete systems.

                              Even with all that, supported properly the Eagle C is still a damned lethal opponent BVR, and with AIM-9X it is the equal to anything in the sky WVR.

                              AIM-9X makes your planes turn rate pretty irrelevant. I am quite confident that a Eagle pilot using JHMCS can turn his head and lock a AIM-9X on target MUCH faster than an SU-anything can turn.

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                              • #90
                                This maybe a little off topic but it interests me, what is generally the maximum flight alttitude for fighters like F-15 or F-18, how about bombers like B-52 or Tupolev 160, I've found various sources on internet and they all say different numbers. I was just wondering if any aircraft can fly out from the reach of SAM missiles, like climbing high enough maybe

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