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F-15C vs. Su-30MKI

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  • well , well, well, who's here ?
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!


    • seems u remember me well..


      • yep, you already flooded most of the threads here anyway... it would be real hard not to notice you :)
        A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!


        • WEll thsi is final year of my degree and after getting placed via campus theresnt anythin much to do when i dont have anywher to go and nothin to do then i flood this forum .. :D


          • HK40,
            don't u agree that US needs 2 train to go up against foes that are equal or higher in capability than itself?


            • Originally posted by M21Sniper
              The F-15I is a modified F-15C.

              It is NOT an F-15E variant. The F-15E has extensive internal reinforcements to allow for the carrainge of the max 24,500lb bombload.

              Sorry BR.
              The first few F-15's that went to Israel were C/D models. However, the majority of them are a variant of the E.


              • Originally posted by TheBigThug
                The F15I was an A model.

                The F15E is vastly superior to the F15I.

                I would know i flew them, And worked Test Group on them.

                F-15I Thunder was a lot of 40 aircraft that were E model derivitives. They were only sold within the past 10 years or so, so it is very possible that you flew earlier variants of the F-15 before this lot was delivered.


                • Originally posted by bigross86
                  You sure abou that? Israeli pilots have been known to kick USAF pilots asses on a number of occasions...
                  Even I'll agree to that. Israeli pilots don't screw around. We train for what we think our enemy aircraft are capable of using the 'red air' philosophy. Israeli pilots train for what the aircraft they are flying is capable of. There have even been occasions where Israeli pilots have briefed USAF pilots on dogfighting with the F-15.


                  • Originally posted by sam0001
                    You seem more knowledgeable than many of those 14 and 16 year olds. Yes, Raptor I dont think looks as sexy as a MKI, but it can take pretty much take any aircraft down, including MKI.

                    I am here for a descent knowledge based discussion. If I like to quarrel then I would be better off at pakistani defence forum.

                    Here is a defenition of maneoverbility. This one has hummingbird used many times, but the concept seems somewhat in line with what I have learnt. Read this


                    Also, anyone have any idea of the forward swept wings of Su-37. I think a forward swept wings would increase speed dramatically and is more aerodynamic, may provide more G's, especially on the negative side. Anyone with any info?
                    Actually, the forward swept wing demonstrator is an S-37. The Su-37 is a variant of the Su-27 family. The forward swept wings as already stated were demonstrated in the early eighties via the x-29 program. There were two things we were trying to prove was that forward swept wings provide extreme maneuverability and reduced drag. The extreme maneuverability was achieved because forward swept wings are extremely unstable. However, if you couple that instability with a fly by wire control system, it makes for an extremely maneuverable aircraft. A lesser example of this is the F/A-18. It is an inherently unstable design that is coupled with a fly-by-wire system to make for a maneuverable aircraft.

                    The reduced drag hypothesis unfortunately did not pan out. What we thought was that conventional aircraft with aft swept wings have increased drag because the wings create lift and to keep the aircraft in straight flight, a down force is necessary on the stabs, which creates additional drag. They thought that sweeping the wings forward would reduce the necessity to counter this upward force to keep the aircraft in level flight. Apparently this was not necessarily true and the canards on the x-29 along with the forward swept wings really didn't provide significant reductions in drag.

                    One problem with using a forward swept wing is that it is geometrically limited on how fast it can go before the forward-protruding wing-tips entroach on the shockwave of the aircraft during supersonic flight.


                    • Originally posted by bigross86
                      What? Many pilots were shot down in 'Nam cuz the MiGs had guns and the F-4's didn't. As for the IAF kills, they are all done with guns except for 1 which was shot with a Shafrir missile

                      He's right. Early on, we (americans) got cocky thinking,, hey we've got missles, we don't need guns anymore, so the dip sh*ts didn't put one on the aircraft. If they could get in close on us, we were defenceless. We later came up with a gun pod that could hang on a pylon, and again took victories. Later versions of the F-4 (can't remember which) have a slightly longer nose and the gun is incorporated beneath it.


                      • Originally posted by Garry
                        Just to summurise what you all theoretised here...... Many here claimed that SU-MKI is worth nothing against F-15, while it is quite stupid to do so until an actual results are obtained. So lets hope US will test F-22 with SU-30MKI next year. It will be itneresting to see how generation 5 will handle generation 4+. If even one F-22 is shot down then its superiority is quite questionable agains further modifications of SU Flanker.

                        Regarding the stealthy features of F-22 Raptor it is a questionable quality until it is actually tested against modern Russian radars.
                        My belief is based on an article in Russian military export magazine about investigation of evacuated wreckages of THREE F-117 (Americans have admitted then only one but who believes to military?) from Yugoslavia of which one was apparently shot down with BUK missile. This was very precious information for Russian military experts and they made a full investigation on the all three cases. The report on the investigation made by Russian experts concludes that F-117 was visible with old radars with low frequency and long-waves used by old BUK. This type of radars are not used since early 70-es as they are quite larger in size. However most of the modern and smaller radar designs used for missiles and aircrafts were unable to detect F-117 beyond 10km range.

                        They also have studies the material of F-117 under modern Russian radar and reported its high efficiency in most used radar wave spectrums. The report suggested modification to Russian radars to widen wave spectrums to handle F-117 type technologies. Sorry I can not spot it to you guys as it is in Russian language and issued for Arab clients.

                        /WPS Summary: The Pentagon announced results of the joint war games of the U.S. and Indian air force last Thursday. The outcome of the first dogfight shocked the USAF - Su fighters displayed their overwhelming superiority./


                        The Pentagon announced results of the joint war games of the U.S. and Indian air force last Thursday. India's Su-30MKI fighters manufactured in Russia and Jaguar assault planes will fly to the Anchorage Point airbase in Alaska on June 4; in late 2004 F-16 fighters of the United States will pay a visit to the Gwalior base in the State of Madhya Pradesh, India. The joint war games, which were recently conducted in India, when the best Russian and U.S. fighters met in an air combat for the first time, encouraged the cooperation between the Indian and U.S. air forces. The outcome of the first dogfight shocked the Americans - Su fighters displayed their overwhelming superiority.

                        Four F-15C Eagle fighters of the 315th Air Division based in Eaglestone (Texas) represented the USA. It should be noted that pilots of this division have combat experience; large war games of the NATO air force entitled Gun Smoke are arranged at this airbase twice a year. Special Agressor squadrons, equipped with planes and helicopters imitating the aircraft of potential foes are involved in similar maneuvers. Similar exercises are imitating the tactical environment, maximally approximated to combat. (...)

                        The USA agreed to send its best fighters to India only after they had got guarantees that Su-30MKI, the most up-to-date fighters produced in Russia would take part in the war games. This was the first occasion when the combat properties of the best Western and the best Russian planes could be compared in a duel. Results of the war games stunned the U.S. Air Force command. It has been considered so far that the perfect performance characteristics typical of the Su family aircraft are made up for with the excellent airborne equipment the U.S. planes have. Radars installed at F-15C fighters hypothetically detect an enemy earlier than a U.S. plane is detected. This gives a significant advantage - it saves time, required for homing and launching a missile. However, the Indian pilots transformed U.S. ideas of the tactics in fighting aviation. Using the passive infrared scanners, which may detect a smoldering cigarette in a thick forest at the distance of 30 km, Su-30 fighters stealthily came up to the U.S. fighters to reach the distance of an aimed shot from an airborne cannon! A heavier and, therefore, less maneuverable Eagle fighter have few chances to survive in a close combat. As reported by the Indian command, the Americans were dropped at least 20 times.

                        Besides, it turned out that the Russian airborne radars are better than the vaunted U.S.-made radars. The former enabled to detect F-15 planes at the distance of up 60 km even against the mountainous background. The enemy's radars were merely "blind" under similar circumstances, not seeing a target against the backdrop of multiple radio beam reflections from the mountain ledges.

                        The tactics displayed by the Indian pilots became another surprise for the Americans. Air Marshal Michael Mcmahon, Vice Chief of India's Air Staff told us: "The Americans were expecting us to act applying the fighting aviation according to the Western doctrine. However, we chose the Soviet model and, as a result, gained the upper hand over our opponents." In the outcome, fighters manufactured by Sukhoi Design Bureau were in absolute advantage. They won two of each three duels they've been to.

                        The U.S. Air Force Command is seriously perplexed by results of the exercises. Besides, at the U.S. initiative the maneuvers scheduled for 2004 will be conducted according to the extended program. Thus, F-16 Fighting Falcon, the major tactical fighters in the West, will participate in the exercises to be held in India against MiG-29 fighters, their counterparts which are in service with the Indian Air Force. The Hindus are seriously interested in that, since falcon fighters make the basis of the Air Force of Pakistan, which is India's potential enemy. In addition, a couple of AWACS planes will be involved in the exercises as well. The Hindus want to test efficiency of this system before deciding to purchase A-50 planes of joint Russian-Israeli production. Il-78 aircraft, which recently were purchased from Russia, will participate in a nonstop flight to Alaska for the first time in history of the Indian Air Force.
                        COPE India had some seriously hidden agendas. First of all, it was much more about seeing what capabilities India had then whether or not we could beat them. The second was making the F-15 look inapt to make a case for the F/A-22 which is seriously struggling in congress (the program has been on the verge of being cut several times). USAF intentionally sent less than apt F-15's in there without the APG-63 AESA radar, no JHMCS, no AMRAAM, made them fly under restriction, and sent them up in groups of 4 against 10-14 foreign fighters. Then let the media turn it into a catastrophy like they do with everything, and voila! we've got a case to keep the F/A-22!

                        I'm an engineer on the F-15 in St. Louis, and trust me, that was all politics. Our best F-15C's stationed at Elmendorf AK can sustain air superiority against any threat out there.


                        • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                          On spring Cope a few things are important to remember.

                          The F-15s were outnumbered, always by at least 2:1.

                          The F-15s did not have AIM-9X.

                          The F-15s did not have AWACS or Prowler support, which they'd have in a real wartime scenario.

                          Snoozing the radar is a great way to close undetected......unless there is an AWACS around.

                          Also, the radar of the F-22 will not show up on a standard RWR set, so the F-22 does not have to snooze the radar to remain stealthy.

                          To the best of my knowledge the Eagles used at Spring Cope WERE equipped with the APG-63(V)2 AESA radar.
                          Unfortunately, no they weren't. We would have stood a far better chance, even under restriction. The F-15's greatest weakness is it's huge RCS. With the APG-63v2, it can still see far enough to detect others before it's RCS gives it away.


                          • Originally posted by M21Sniper
                            What Jay said.

                            If you take away AWACS, Jamming, AIM-9X, and outnumber F-15s with SU-30MkIs with the quality of pilots that the Indians have(arguably among the very best in the world), you SHOULD smoke the Eagles, don't you think?

                            If you couldn't, then it would mean you're facing the

                            The SU-33 is a OLDER naval fighter, the SU-35 is just a russian version of the MkI(more or less), and not as capable, and the SU-37 is unfunded and probably IS the max of what a Flanker can be.

                            Like i said, the ACTIVE Eagle would give a SU-37 or any Flanker all it could handle. You have to remember that the F-15C has not been upgraded in over a decade. It is an old plane with high miles and obsolete systems.

                            Even with all that, supported properly the Eagle C is still a damned lethal opponent BVR, and with AIM-9X it is the equal to anything in the sky WVR.

                            AIM-9X makes your planes turn rate pretty irrelevant. I am quite confident that a Eagle pilot using JHMCS can turn his head and lock a AIM-9X on target MUCH faster than an SU-anything can turn.
                            Many of the C model F-15's at Elmendorf are continuously upgraded. Unfortunately, none of these flew in COPE India. The reason that the F-15 was defeated so prominantly in Cope India was because it couldn't reach out and touch someone without AMRAAM or AESA.


                            • [QUOTE=ajaybhutani]My dear frnd,
                              as i have said earlier in my ports , u cannot generalize and say that the weapons russians produce are nowhere near their Us counterparts unless u can prove it.. only americans take that kind of a statement as a fact...

                              Be nice. Americans are a diverse group of people, and not all of us think through glasses of arrogance.


                              • 3. And about AESA on F15 the F15's in cope thunder had AESA radars.... both MK and F`15C where able to see each other at the saem time on their respective case u didnt read my link carefully..heres the extract..

                                I am confident that this is a mistake. The F15's in Cope India did not have the AESA APG-63v2 radars. This was a severe disadvantage to us. I am very confident that this is a true statement.