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Jane's : China's J-10 benefited from Israeli Lavi

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  • Jane's : China's J-10 benefited from Israeli Lavi

    From Jane's :

    Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'
    By Robert Hewson
    19 May 2008

    Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.

    In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.

    Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"

    It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.

    Image: China's J-10 (Internet)

    234 of 785 words
    © 2008 Jane's Information Group
    End of non-subscriber extract

    Link

  • #2
    no secret.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

    Comment


    • #3
      The Chinese claims the J-9, which predates the LAVI, was the true ancestor of the J-10. However, I don't doubt that some of LAVI's info got leaked to the Chinese.

      Comment


      • #4
        "doesn't everyone know that already?"
        I think that everyone pretty much knew this was true, with the exception of a few fan boys who want to believe that China has independently developed everything that they produce without any outside help.

        Comment


        • #5
          The question is how much influence the Lavi had on the J-10?

          It doesn't make much sense for Chengdu to reverse engineer the Lavi and then just simply change the design in so many fundamental ways (wing and intake shape, for example).

          Comment


          • #6
            to me, "Israel's involvement in J-10" is a conspiracy theory
            Last edited by tonyget; 31 May 08,, 21:57.

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            • #7
              Reports of Israeli involvement in this program surfaced back in the mid-1990s, when the Pentagon leaked the news. Janes has merely added additional detail (and additional eyewitness reports) to what was already known.

              This was during a period when the United States was still lax with regard to technology transfer to China. The US knew about Israeli involvement in the J-10, just like they knew about the AWACS competition that both Israel and the UK proposed aircraft for - and which Israel won in 1996. The Clinton Administration chose not to protest either of these events, whether to Israel or to the British. Arming China was just part of maintaining the "balance of power" vis-a-vis the remnants of Soviet Russia.

              This attitude did not change until the Chinese espionage scandal in 1998, when the US began to clamp down on the transfer of dual-use technology to China by US companies, as well as pressuring its allies to terminate any military contacts with China. Once the US did protest Israeli arms sales to China, and did so forcefully, Israel complied and suspended cooperation - including signed agreements for the AWACS and for the Harpy drones. If the US had protested sooner, there likely would have been little or no opportunity for Israeli participation on the J-10 either.

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              • #8
                Lavi influence in J-10 is mainly aerodynamic reference and digital FBW, nothing meriting its status as the predecessor of J-10.

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                • #9
                  Really which part is astonishing, Israel helping China with technical stuff.
                  China is a growing economic and military power, its vital for Israel to have good relations with China, what i do not get is why would they do all of this when they knew that their major ally US is not comfortable with cooperation in defence related matters? I mean when **** hits the fan, US is the only nation standing for Israel.
                  Last edited by kuku; 01 Jun 08,, 14:39.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Skywatcher View Post
                    The question is how much influence the Lavi had on the J-10?

                    It doesn't make much sense for Chengdu to reverse engineer the Lavi and then just simply change the design in so many fundamental ways (wing and intake shape, for example).
                    Chengdu didn't reverse engineer it, they had the plans. The modifications were made in Russia (to accomodate the AL-31). This is why the changes in aft fuse and intake, etc. There was a lot of wind-tunnel work done in Russia on the Lavi design to turn it into the J-10. There were other changes made to accomodate the manufacturing capability of Chinese aerospace.
                    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by outofshdw View Post
                      Reports of Israeli involvement in this program surfaced back in the mid-1990s, when the Pentagon leaked the news. Janes has merely added additional detail (and additional eyewitness reports) to what was already known.

                      This was during a period when the United States was still lax with regard to technology transfer to China. The US knew about Israeli involvement in the J-10, just like they knew about the AWACS competition that both Israel and the UK proposed aircraft for - and which Israel won in 1996. The Clinton Administration chose not to protest either of these events, whether to Israel or to the British. Arming China was just part of maintaining the "balance of power" vis-a-vis the remnants of Soviet Russia.

                      This attitude did not change until the Chinese espionage scandal in 1998, when the US began to clamp down on the transfer of dual-use technology to China by US companies, as well as pressuring its allies to terminate any military contacts with China. Once the US did protest Israeli arms sales to China, and did so forcefully, Israel complied and suspended cooperation - including signed agreements for the AWACS and for the Harpy drones. If the US had protested sooner, there likely would have been little or no opportunity for Israeli participation on the J-10 either.
                      Correct.
                      "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kuku View Post
                        Really which part is astonishing, Israel helping China with technical stuff.
                        China is a growing economic and military power, its vital for Israel to have good relations with China, what i do not get is why would they do all of this when they knew that their major ally US is not comfortable with cooperation in defence related matters? I mean when **** hits the fan, US is the only nation standing for Israel.
                        US and China had fairly extensive defense collaboration towards the end of the Cold War, directed, of course, at the Soviet Union. These included joint radio listening stations inside China, the sale of Blackhawk helicopters, and the predecessor to today's JF-17, the Super-7. Direct US military sales largely stopped after the Tienanmen Square Massacre. It should not be surprising that US allies continued certain activities.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by outofshdw View Post
                          This attitude did not change until the Chinese espionage scandal in 1998, when the US began to clamp down on the transfer of dual-use technology to China by US companies, as well as pressuring its allies to terminate any military contacts with China.

                          I don't think it's because of Chinese espionage, that's just a pretext. The Chinese espionage in US had been a long while and the US knew it.

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                          • #14
                            Turning Point

                            Originally posted by tonyget View Post
                            I don't think it's because of Chinese espionage, that's just a pretext. The Chinese espionage in US had been a long while and the US knew it.
                            We are not talking about the rudimentary, industrial espionage that goes on all the time - even between allies. In 1998 it became public, for the first time, that China had obtained access to US nuclear weapons designs. These are the most sensitive secrets that the US posesses, potentially giving China the ability to miniaturize their warheads and MIRV their ICBMs for the first time.

                            This scandal led directly to a Congressional enquiry, which you can read about on-line if you aren't familiar with it:
                            Cox Report

                            This was a very big deal. It led directly to a tightening of US export control regulations, the prosecution of a number of US aerospace firms that had been lax about their export practices in the past, and a largely unsuccessful witch hunt to identify the individuals responsible for leaking US nuclear secrets at Los Alamos. Clamping down on Israeli trade with China was just one element in a wider picture.

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