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M21, need your help re: EP-3 Incident

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  • Zaphael
    replied
    Originally posted by M21Sniper
    And vice versa, i am sure.

    There have been no shortage of nations to misinterpret/misunderstand American intentions/resolve in our brief history either...including several flavors of asians.

    LOL...
    I wouldn't say its a misinterpretation of resolve or intentions. Its more like, a lack of understanding of Asian cultural protocols, formalities and courtesies. I'm not saying that this happens always on a state to state level, but just generally.

    Asians/ Chinese / Japanese regard something called "face" value very highly. Unfortunately, there is no enqlish equivalent for this word "face." A close approximation would be, "respectful courtesy." To be fair, its not just Americans, but Brits, and europeans as well. Not being aware and not having provision for this "face" concept, could have serious ill effects on diplomatic negotiations with asian countries.

    In a way, during diplomatic negotiations, it is important to shape the negotiation and proposed outcomes to LOOK like its a "win win" for both parties. For example, in the negotiation with China over the EP-3 incident, the US diplomatic offensive was shaped to look more like a "Win lose" situation. "American win, China lose." In no way would the Chinese government agree to immediate release of the pilots and return of the aircraft, simply because "face" was not shown/given to the Chinese. So instead of having an assertive negotiation, the US seemed to have had an "aggressive" negotiation. What China wanted was an apology, and US, their plane and crew back safely.

    Fortunately for both parties, the plane and crew returned safely, and China got what they interpreted as an apology. It was fortunate cos I think both parties felt it was time bring a resolution to that matter. Still, it really demonstrated to the Chinese that westerners still did not understand them well enough.

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  • Parihaka
    replied
    Originally posted by gunnut
    I find that a bit hard to believe. Then again, what do I know?
    You know plenty gunnut. I may not know about spying matters but I do know about transmission and remote control of hardware. If it's completely turned off, it's not receiving, and that's it.
    Now if it's just in 'sleep' mode, that's another story.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill
    replied
    Originally posted by Zaphael
    He does have a point you know.

    Americans generally do have a lack of understanding of Chinese or Asian cultures and way of thinking. Especially so with Japanese.
    And vice versa, i am sure.

    There have been no shortage of nations to misinterpret/misunderstand American intentions/resolve in our brief history either...including several flavors of asians.

    LOL...

    Leave a comment:


  • Zaphael
    replied
    Originally posted by cooldw57
    I also find his comments a bit amusing ;)
    He does have a point you know.

    Americans generally do have a lack of understanding of Chinese or Asian cultures and way of thinking. Especially so with Japanese.

    Leave a comment:


  • cooldw57
    replied
    Originally posted by tphuang
    Actually, I do find that a lot of people not well versed in the Chinese culture have a hard time of knowing what's going on.

    Interesting, you seem to make comments about me just based on
    "lol, do you have family in China and have you ever stayed in China for a long time, that you can make a statement like this?"
    So, since you sound like you are into psychology. Can you explain to me how I display this "symptom of an astouding inferiority complex"?

    But yeah, since you've been to China many times, you mind explaining which part bothers you? Obviously, I disagree with your view, but feel free to prove it.
    I also find his comments a bit amusing ;)

    Leave a comment:


  • Archer
    replied
    "India gets ready for AEW&C, moves other projects forward" , JDW, May 2006 has this snippet

    China, with whom India has an ongoing border dispute, is also believed to be acquiring two Russian A-50 AEW&C aircraft by 2008 and additionally ordering an unspecified number of similar platforms. It is also planning on supplementing these imports with its local AEW&C programme.
    As regards the Phalcons ELINT ability, same article says

    According to industry sources, each of the IAF's Phalcon systems will be equipped with the L-band active phased-array radar mounted on a stationary radome developed by Raytheon Airborne Systems. They will also be equipped with a maximum of eight multifunction operator consoles with 20-inch (50.8 cm) active matrix liquid crystal displays from Barco of Belgium and two electronic countermeasures/electronic intelligence operator posts.

    This will make the aircraft an airborne network-centric battle-management platform in addition to its basic AEW&C function.

    India's military is concentrating on honing its network-centric warfighting activities to develop an integrated real-time C4ISR capability. The Phalcons will constitute an integral component of this potential, military planners said.
    &

    In 2005 India's cabinet committee on security also cleared the development of an indigenous AEW&C system jointly by the IAF and the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) by 2011 at a cost of INR18 billion (USD409 million).
    Last edited by Archer; 01 Jun 06,, 22:07.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    It's not the CDF.

    I attribute the Y8 more to the cancelled PHALCON deal than anything else. The PLA has always wanted the abilities. They've seen it in Kosovo. Intel has always been a PLA desire with HUMIT as the primary source.

    I should not say that the PLA got squat. Just the number of crewmen and the layout of the plane would get them thinking.

    That, more than any hard intelligence, is the real effect of the EP-3.

    Leave a comment:


  • xinhui
    replied
    Col,


    Just have time to read some other threads in this place.

    which borad would that be? There is a huge increase in PLAAF/PLANAF's Specialized Y-8 in service/eval, I am sure it has to do with an impression made during inspection "tour" of the EP-3.

    Look at all those toys, I want one!

    Leave a comment:


  • TopHatter
    replied
    Here is an account from one of the pilots that returned the crew.

    Pretty good reading. :)

    http://www.cargolaw.com/2001nightmar...rescue_mission

    Leave a comment:


  • gunnut
    replied
    Originally posted by Puressence
    One interesting anecdote though from a Chinese publication. They found that the P-3 plane could turn on mobile phones from hundreds of kilometres away, even those that had been hard switched off.
    I find that a bit hard to believe. Then again, what do I know?

    Leave a comment:


  • Puressence
    replied
    I understand from my readings that the P-3 plane flipped upside down after the Chinese pilot clipped the propeller. The nose radome was GONE. It was quite a close call and could have influenced the American pilot's decision to head for a Chinese airfield. The other Chinese pilot screaming to shoot the P-3 down may also have something to do with it. It apparently took 20 minutes to land and they got to work right away destroying the stuff. Is it time enough? Who knows.

    One interesting anecdote though from a Chinese publication. They found that the P-3 plane could turn on mobile phones from hundreds of kilometres away, even those that had been hard switched off. So it is official policy now that all Chinese officers turn off their mobile phones AND take out the batteries before attending meetings. :D

    I don't think it rattled US signit a lot. Weeks later, the P-3s were back probing the airspace again.

    Leave a comment:


  • TopHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
    Lt Osborn stated in his book that he played the language barrier game until everything that could be done was done. The PLA guards on the tarmac were just as confused with the situation as the US crew was. He then openned the door and signal for the guards to come in.

    IIRC, the 1st thing the PLA sent in was a medic to see if everybody was all right. Then, they sent in the guys with the AK-47s.
    I know that Wikipedia can and is inaccurate at times, but this is their article's take on the potential loss of SIGINT equipment, technology etc.

    The EP-3E was carrying sensitive listening equipment. Navy protocol calls for destruction of this equipment in the event the plane is captured or if there is a chance it will be boarded by non-U.S. personnel. Chinese military did board the plane after it landed in Hainan but it is not known if any sensitive information was retrieved. US satellite pictures have shown that Chinese military vehicles parking near the plane, presumably transporting some equipment off the plane. Some have argued that the incident improved Chinese spying technology by at least 5 years.
    Didn't know that Lt Osborn wrote a book, I'll have to look for it :)

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by TopHatter
    Was the hatch to the aircraft forced open at the point of a rifle or was the crew allowed to open it at their comparative "leisure"?
    Lt Osborn stated in his book that he played the language barrier game until everything that could be done was done. The PLA guards on the tarmac were just as confused with the situation as the US crew was. He then openned the door and signal for the guards to come in.

    IIRC, the 1st thing the PLA sent in was a medic to see if everybody was all right. Then, they sent in the guys with the AK-47s.

    Leave a comment:


  • TopHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
    Situation understood. Suffice to say it's not as easy as reading a broken hard drive.
    My thoughts...musings actually...

    Is it generally understood that from the moment it became apparent that the bird wasn't going to make it anywhere "friendly", the crew started to shred, break, trash, destroy, mutilate and generally be unkind to any sensitive documents and equipment?

    Was the hatch to the aircraft forced open at the point of a rifle or was the crew allowed to open it at their comparative "leisure"?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Actually, Bill, you've just told me everything. Thank you. Nothing more needs to be said.

    Leave a comment:

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