Eurofighter vs Su-30MKI

[ajaybhutani]

why don't you prove yourself, i have to go, so i'll respond quickly

Link for what . U show me the line u need a proof for . I'll give u a link.

how od you know that they're not inducting the Su-35/37,

Well its like they havent placed any orders for it at all.ITs that simple.

the Russian government is extremely interested in both programs, particularily the Su-37, AND, just to add, the Su-37 is not complete yet, the full version with full specs will be in 2007, and it will be able to reach Mach 3, and a few other features, have to ask my friend, he knows more about that

Link please

as Russia's trade surplus grows even faster, and it's budget surplus grows even larger, there will be more money funnelled into Rand D projects as well as acquisition of new equipment over the nest few years

They even have loads of money to be spent on PAK-FA and others.

stupid information, you've never heard of the AIM-54 Pheonix being use dgainst normal fighter aircraft, wow, talk about stupid

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/aim-54.htm

AIM-54C can better counter projected threats from tactical aircraft and cruise missiles

and although the Ks-172 and the AIM-54 Pheonix are both made for destroying AWACS, tankers etc. they can also be used against fighter aircraft, although it's inefficient(it has a really low chance of actually destroying the aircraft, because a fighter maneuver's much better than an AWACS or Tanker aircraft)

Well how can u even compare a missile still in development and the one that is alerady in production. and even about to be phased out. with F14 phase out.

"AWAC killing m,issiles have that range."

?

Well because an AWAC has a air cover so its good t shoot it out from farther off distance and because it moves slowly and is less agile we need a less agile missile. compared to the missiles thta are developed for fighters.
Secondly a simple logic If AIM54 was taht good then they souldnt be planning to phase it out but instead use it with their F18's .

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...G=Search&meta=

1 mile=1.61 kilometers

Really dsnt matter in this duscussion as none of us actually know about the actual ranges of any of these missiles.

why do you still think that Russia has no money, do some studying, then talk to me about the Russian economy, it's literally BOOMING

Well it still has no plans to induct any of the fighters even though its AF is getting worse day by day. or making more frigades /subs for navy .

keep track on current events, and then you'll realize Russia is not poor anymore, not even close

Well all i know it its not even that rich that it can keep up with a PAK-FA a MIG1.42 a SU37 development a nuke program a missile development programme a tank program etc etc.

although, you are correct that Russia will no longer purchase anymore MiG-31's, but don't rule out the Su-37, which could take it's place and the Su-27's, the Su-35, i don't know where it would fit since the Su-37 is superior to it

Well its making a PAK-FA for induction in 2010-11 . And how much will be inducted in case it want to start inducting SU-37 by 2007. Just 4 years and since the costs will be comparable the economics and technology will force the induction ofPAK-FA and leaving out SU-37 and i believe that the russians are intelligent nough to see it and not invest more on su-37 unless from the point of view of an export model . But again they are gfinding it easier to use MKI as an export model than SU37. in the form of MKM etc.
BTW su35 3su37 are all based on su27. And so need not be termed as saperate planes and developments . Again They are not

[Dima]

****, lol, i can't find the link, you might have to wait for tomorrow, let me look a little bit more

here it is, 15th paragraph from the bottom

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Su-27.htm

let me check for some more

forget it, you look for them, man i'm tired of providing so many links

"U show me the line u need a proof for"

so, what am i try8nig to prove here? i forgot

well, obviously not, the Su-37 isn't even complete, and the Su-35 is mainly intended for export countries, Russia will adopt the Su-37 and Su-35 into their air force, mostly Su-37's because they're more advanced

well, you see, since Russia incresaed defense spending for R and D projects by 40%, and they have incresaed russian procurement by 27%

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...&id=1477782004

i can compare both missiles because they both have the basic exact role as each other, anti-AWACS and Tanker

"Well it still has no plans to induct any of the fighters even though its AF is getting worse day by day. or making more frigades /subs for navy ."

buddy, stop living in the past lol, i know that the 90's were the time for everyone, because there was peace around the world, as Russian armed forces were deteriorating, and the economic collapse of 1998 occurred, well, wake up from that dream buddy, look at Russia now, they're 20-30 hours of flight time for pilots a year in 1998 is nothing to their 60-70 hours flight time in 2004, by 2010, if the economy increases by the same amount(most likely to increase even faster, because of a natural population boost starting in 2008) then by 2010, Russia will be documenting 95-105 flight hours, i am aware that is nothing compared to Indian flight hours, or American, but it is still remarkable progress, and by the time that Russia has started procuring it's T-50, their flight hours will accumulate to 109-119 hours, the minimum safety requirement is something like 180 hours though

actually, Russia is rich enough to keep all those programs alive, MiG1.42, Su-47, even T-50, they are developing the project way faster than the JSF, and that's without Indian funding

if you're nmot aware, Russia purchased 24 Su-27SM's this year, so, Russia's aviation industry is far from dead

obviously they're derived from the Su-27, who doesn't know that, do you know what the Su-30MKM is, lol, jeeze, that's the export model for Malaysia ONLY, but they might sell it to another country, actually, you are really mistaken about this whole situation, Russia will use the Su-37/Su-35 in the interceptor/heavy platform role, while the much lighter T-50 will be used for the roles of the MiG-29 today, but MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY, so, in the future, Russia will be purchasing only about 3 maximum differnet planes per year for their fighter regiments, Su-37, maybe Su-35, and T-50(waiting for official designation)

[ajaybhutani]

****, lol, i can't find the link, you might have to wait for tomorrow, let me look a little bit more

take ur time

here it is, 15th paragraph from the bottom

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Su-27.htm

1. This article was written in 1997. AT that time PAK-FA wasnt even started.
2. MKI today uses the same radar that was proposed to be added to SU37.
3. MKI today uses a better TVC engine than SU37 u mentioned.
and yes about ur 15th paragraph.

is it this u are talking about

Su-35 Radar, which can be assumed to be the starting point for the Su-37,has a range capability put at 400 km (220 nm) for air targets and 200 km
(110 nm) for ground targets. It has expanded its simultaneous track capability from 10 to 15 air targets and can engage up to six all at once. The radar also has a low altitude terrain following / avoidance capability. It will have the ability to operate in "group combat actions" which tells me it will have aircraft-to-aircraft data link in conjunction with the Su-30 or MiG-31. It also will undertake the "Effective suppression of current and future air defense electronic systems" which tells me that it will utilize on board defensive warning and active jamming systems as well as the capability to employ some or all of the many ARM air-to-surface missiles developed by the Russians.

The Su-35 and Su-37 are today the most attractive multi-role fighter products of the Russian aerospace industry. In the beginning of 1994 the Su-35 was procured for the Russian air force and deliveries are now being made. If foreign customers continue to fund the development of the VTCSu-37, as they appear to be doing, the Russian Air Force should switch to the Su-37 once an export production line is established.

The Farnborough Su-37 cockpit, which is the latest configuration in the development aircraft's life, bears little resemblance to the Su-35 cockpit. It includes two liquid-crystal wide screen MFD's in a balanced left & right arrangement. The center display just below the HUD was removed to accommodate a test-panel, but the lower moving-map/situation display remained. The actual aircraft did not completely match the picture shown in AW&ST (02Sep96, pg 125) that featured four displays. At the time of Farnborough, the cockpit was also being shared by the French Sagem Nav-Attack system that replaced the Russian HUD with their own.

Well u just missed a small point
1. its not official article/related to official info about procurement schedules.
2. It was written in 1997.

let me check for some more

forget it, you look for them, man i'm tired of providing so many links

Prob is nones worth fulfilling ur claims. Dont give unnnecessary links like the one above . As they dont make any sense today.

"U show me the line u need a proof for"

so, what am i try8nig to prove here? i forgot

Try hard kabhi na kabhi yaad aa jaayega.

well, obviously not, the Su-37 isn't even complete, and the Su-35 is mainly intended for export countries, Russia will adopt the Su-37 and Su-35 into their air force, mostly Su-37's because they're more advanced

ell from which link??? the 1997 one.
And yes its a frank suggestion for u. Compare the specs for SU37 and MKI. U'll know the answers .

well, you see, since Russia incresaed defense spending for R and D projects by 40%, and they have incresaed russian procurement by 27%

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...&id=1477782004

Well good for them . But u've missed the link stating that they are procuring more aircrafts.

i can compare both missiles because they both have the basic exact role as each other, anti-AWACS and Tanker

Well then compare the specs and also the specs of these with the stuff like AIM120(in terms of agility speed etc. ). For if they were so good against the normal fighters too they wouldnt have been designated as Anti AWAC missiles . And there wouldnt have been

"Well it still has no plans to induct any of the fighters even though its AF is getting worse day by day. or making more frigades /subs for navy ."

buddy, stop living in the past lol, i know that the 90's were the time for everyone, because there was peace around the world, as Russian armed forces were deteriorating, and the economic collapse of 1998 occurred, well, wake up from that dream buddy, look at Russia now, they're 20-30 hours of flight time for pilots a year in 1998 is nothing to their 60-70 hours flight time in 2004, by 2010, if the economy increases by the same amount(most likely to increase even faster, because of a natural population boost starting in 2008) then by 2010, Russia will be documenting 95-105 flight hours, i am aware that is nothing compared to Indian flight hours, or American, but it is still remarkable progress, and by the time that Russia has started procuring it's T-50, their flight hours will accumulate to 109-119 hours, the minimum safety requirement is something like 180 hours though

good article. But u shud know that the flying hours for india /US /israel etc is well above 200. And a country which cannot even give its pilots the minimum specified flight hours sopmethin which dsnt cost that much but is as imp as teh machines capabilities in war. Then u urself have shown the monetary position of russian forces.

actually, Russia is rich enough to keep all those programs alive, MiG1.42, Su-47, even T-50, they are developing the project way faster than the JSF, and that's without Indian funding

Well firstly therse only one official alive program thats T50. And other two are called its technology demonstrators. And second its getting indian money. After all why sould a country want to take foreign money for such a critical project unless it cannot do without it. The stuff like 1.42 is supposedly kept alive by the mig company by usoing its own funds and we all know how much funds mig has. It faced problems in even starting the indian orders in time even after the payment of advance and the russian govt had to step in to change the head of mig and other changes to get it started.

if you're nmot aware, Russia purchased 24 Su-27SM's this year, so, Russia's aviation industry is far from dead

Well link for the purchase.
Secondly i never said that its dead. They have T50. The MKI is their product(obviously with foreign inputs) and also the newere commercial aircrafts are coming up on collaborations.). They are surviving with exports and collaborations with other foreign companies .

obviously they're derived from the Su-27, who doesn't know that, do you know what the Su-30MKM is, lol, jeeze, that's the export model for Malaysia ONLY, but they might sell it to another country,

Well they will but with a different name LOL.

actually, you are really mistaken about this whole situation, Russia will use the Su-37/Su-35 in the interceptor/heavy platform role, while the much lighter T-50 will be used for the roles of the MiG-29 today, but MUCH MORE EFFICIENTLY,

The link..

so, in the future, Russia will be purchasing only about 3 maximum differnet planes per year for their fighter regiments, Su-37, maybe Su-35, and T-50(waiting for official designation)

link..

[Dima]

yes, i was growing desperate there, because it was late, so i took anything i could find, let me try again

firstly, let me say some stuff between the Su-37 and Su-30MKI, firstly, the Su-30MKI is the first aircraft to ever employ 3d TVC engines, the AL-31FP

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/696/data/spec_1003_e.gif

it's efficiency is truly remarkable, 0.67, and it generates 12,500 kg of thrust
http://www.irkut.com/en/news/news_ar...x.php?id48=120

or about 27,625 lbs. of thrust each, for a total of 55,250 lbs. of thrust

the engine that the Su-37 CURRENTLY uses is the AL-37FU and it's efficiency is equal to that of the AL-31FP, 0.67

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/six5th_5.html

but,. the thing that sets it apart is that each engine generates 31,967 lbs. of thrust each, so both of them totalled up equals 63,934 lbs. of thrust, which equates to a faster overall speed, and because more thrust, higher speed, with equal efficiency equals longer range as well, making it perfect for the interceptor role(in addition to the AA-13 etc.)

i just found out how amazing the D-30F6 engines are on the MiG-31, each they generate a total of 34,170 lbs. of thrust each, for a total of 68,340 lbs. of thurst, insanely incredible, but it's efficiency is slightly lower, 0.72 compared to o.67 for these other engines

overall, the Su-37 is equipped with better engines, but, Russia is expected to switch all their modern fighters to use the AL-41 engine, which generates something like 34,255-44,000 lbs. of thrust each(haven'y specified exactly, but reason to believe that it is the latter because Saturna-Llyulka mentioned that it would be the most powerful engine in the world, thus, it ahs to be higher than 40,000lbs.), enabling it to have a total of 68,510-88,000 lbs. of thrust, putting even the F-22 to shame, once this takes place, this aircraft will be perfect for both interceptor and fighter role

"Try hard kabhi na kabhi yaad aa jaayega."

what the hell does that mean?

"designated as Anti AWAC missiles"

do you simply not understand child? even though it was designated (and it's primary role) was to be an AWACS and tanker killer doesn't mean that it can't perform other tasks as well, can someone find any kills by an AIM-54 that weren't AWACS or Tankers?, let me look for some

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml
(2ed paragraph)
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36243
(2ed paragraph once again)

but think about it this way, i can have a hockey stick, i can use it to smack my sister, OR i can also use it to smack my friends, work's both ways, but their different people

"Compare the specs for SU37 and MKI. U'll know the answers "

why do you act so confident, why do you know the specs, i hope you learn that export models are inferior to the "mother" nations model, take this for example, Russia's Sukhoi bureau states that the Su-27SM is even better than the MKI, and it costs 1/8 the price as well, because it is an upgrade, and when the real stats behind the Su-37 come out, you'll know, already the plane is easily a match for the MKI

why don't you compare the specs yourself if you're so curious, let yourself find out, i already know that in terms of range, the Ks-172 destroys anything, fine, i'll briefly compare both, 400+km range for Ks-172 vs. 203.8km AIM-54
Mach 5.4 AIM-54 vs. unknown
Ks-172 operating envelope 30,000m(no fighter can escape it) vs. (20,000m for the AIM-120C, so it can't engage a MiG-25) 30,500m
59.9kg warhead weight AIM-54 vs. 50kg warhead weight Ks-172

so, all in all, it's very close, with an unknown speed for the Ks-172, it clearly has a massive advantage(two-fold) over the AIM-54, it's operating envelope is crazy, same with AIm-54, Pheonix has a slight lead, but useless because no aircraft can fly above 30,000m anyways, but, the AIM-54 does have a larger warhead, meaning larger bang, BOOM

"good article. But u shud know that the flying hours for india /US /israel etc is well above 200. And a country which cannot even give its pilots the minimum specified flight hours sopmethin which dsnt cost that much but is as imp as teh machines capabilities in war. Then u urself have shown the monetary position of russian forces."

obviously, i think i mentioned that in my post, i know that it's not close to the flight hours of Indian and American pilots, common knowledge, somthing which doesn't cost that much, the dumbest thing i've heard today, something that doesn't cost that much, so, thousands of kilograms of fuel spent in less than a week, when fuel prices for a barrel were over $50, oh sure, not expensive(sarcasm) $3,500 maintenance work PER flight HOUR, not expensive(sarcasm) are you utterly retarded, aircraft are the second most expensive thing to keep in the air, in addition, Russia has the largest air force in the world, and i believe the largest navy, that's A LOT of do out of the pocket just trying to maintain all of that, including the world's second largest nuclear arsenal, largest biochemical arsenal,largest ground force and trying to keep their R and D projects on a steady path with an economy les than that of India's, so, take that into account, no offense, but i can't justt keep it in, your ******** small navy doesn't cost much to keep seaworthy, you don't have many aircraft, or tanks, and your infantry are treated like ****, so don't start to complain about Russia's condition, they have WAY more to take care of than India, no wonder you guys have all that extra money to get 200+ flight hours

"It faced problems in even starting the indian orders in time even after the payment of advance and the russian govt had to step in to change the head of mig and other changes to get it started."

are you reffering to the MiG-29K trade agreement, well, if you'vew been keeping up to date, they will be delivering them exactly as planned, starting in 2007 i believe, or something like that, forgot now

http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_jan2.html
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...01/14/011.html
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/..._aviation.html

also, last link mentions an increase in funding by 30%

there are no links for the last two, but you have to make the assumption based on the characteristics of the aircraft

the T-50 has a max weight of 20 tons, speed of 2,250 kph, alltitude of 18,800m, and flight range of 4,200-5,500 km(7,400 with in-flight refueling)

Su-37 has a maximum weight of 28-35 tons, speed of 2,500 kph to beincreased possibly above 3,000, alltitude of 18,000m, range of 3,700 km(6,500 with in-flight refueling)

will be using the Ks-172 and AA-13, but, the T-50 might just take the place of all aircraft, increase alltitude, speed a lot, the range is fine, and increase weapons armament

regarding the T-50 performing better than the MiG-29 much more efficiently, common sense, please don't ask links and waste my time to stupid things

now i'll look for those links regarding how Russia is interested in the Su-37

you know what, i can't find it, if you want you can either look for it as well, or, you ca just not believe me if you want, doesn't matter to me anyways, i know what's really happening

[ajaybhutani]

yes, i was growing desperate there, because it was late, so i took anything i could find, let me try again

firstly, let me say some stuff between the Su-37 and Su-30MKI, firstly, the Su-30MKI is the first aircraft to ever employ 3d TVC engines, the AL-31FP

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/696/data/spec_1003_e.gif

it's efficiency is truly remarkable, 0.67, and it generates 12,500 kg of thrust
http://www.irkut.com/en/news/news_ar...x.php?id48=120

or about 27,625 lbs. of thrust each, for a total of 55,250 lbs. of thrust

the engine that the Su-37 CURRENTLY uses is the AL-37FU and it's efficiency is equal to that of the AL-31FP, 0.67

Welll by tg time SU37 is complete (if at all it is being developed for induction in RuAF) the AL41F will be up for upgrades fro Indian MKI's. just a guess since we are sharing up the development for PAK-FA we will get the stuff developments in th projects as upgrades for our mki's .

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/six5th_5.html

but,. the thing that sets it apart is that each engine generates 31,967 lbs. of thrust each, so both of them totalled up equals 63,934 lbs. of thrust, which equates to a faster overall speed, and because more thrust, higher speed, with equal efficiency equals longer range as well, making it perfect for the interceptor role(in addition to the AA-13 etc.)

Well theres in flight refuelling to compensate for the range.Furthermore theya re just the specs. And it all depends upon what the final model turns out to be. If it even turns out . Another thing. In spite of having SU37 SU35 etc with them The russians sold MKM to malaysians which are just MKI's with non israeli componenets . Well that clearly states about SU35/SU37 not for export. And yes . If they are not for export and the Air force cannot induct any more aircrafts. (since they are finding it a hard time to even give nough flight hours to their pilots and upgrades) then clearly what the use of making them and wasting money. And yes development costs millions of dollars and running multiple projects which will neve be inducted dsnt make sense. They have PAK-Fa and they arent able to collect moeny for it and are forced to take foreign help . Why will they spoend on projects that donot even amke sense unless of course as test beds for the components. And they have S-37 and Mig1.42 as test beds. So no need to SU37.

i just found out how amazing the D-30F6 engines are on the MiG-31, each they generate a total of 34,170 lbs. of thrust each, for a total of 68,340 lbs. of thurst, insanely incredible, but it's efficiency is slightly lower, 0.72 compared to o.67 for these other engines

overall, the Su-37 is equipped with better engines, but, Russia is expected to switch all their modern fighters to use the AL-41 engine, which generates something like 34,255-44,000 lbs. of thrust each(haven'y specified exactly, but reason to believe that it is the latter because Saturna-Llyulka mentioned that it would be the most powerful engine in the world, thus, it ahs to be higher than 40,000lbs.), enabling it to have a total of 68,510-88,000 lbs. of thrust, putting even the F-22 to shame, once this takes place, this aircraft will be perfect for both interceptor and fighter role

The problem is that SU37 ois dead. No orders since long. No develpment news since long.No money to invest. My frnd its called dead projects. or a closed book.
And yes F22 is much lighter than su37 so dont worry about F22;s speed and capabilities. wrt Su37.

"designated as Anti AWAC missiles"

do you simply not understand child? even though it was designated (and it's primary role) was to be an AWACS and tanker killer doesn't mean that it can't perform other tasks as well, can someone find any kills by an AIM-54 that weren't AWACS or Tankers?, let me look for some

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml
(2ed paragraph)
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36243
(2ed paragraph once again)

1. Normally i dont prefer an analysis from some other forum as it can be considered as biased like u can me are in our posts owing to our incomplete knowledge about the stuff nationality etc etc ..But neways if u look at the same second paragraph it states that its a lot to do with the russian outdated equipments . Read it again stressing on the same line. And u'll know the difference.
2. U need to prove 2 things 1 is AIM54 really as efficeint as say AIM120 for fighter jets . and second if KS172 actually as good as AIM54 in terms of control speed and agility.Well lets put it like this if AIM54 can dsnt mean that KS172 can unless u prove it .

but think about it this way, i can have a hockey stick, i can use it to smack my sister, OR i can also use it to smack my friends, work's both ways, but their different people

Well but a hockey stick isnt as efficient in killing as a sword.And its easier to beat a girl by a hockey stick as she wont have a sword in her hand but the guy/frnd might have one .

"Compare the specs for SU37 and MKI. U'll know the answers "

why do you act so confident, why do you know the specs, i hope you learn that export models are inferior to the "mother" nations model, take this for example, Russia's Sukhoi bureau states that the Su-27SM is even better than the MKI, and it costs 1/8 the price as well, because it is an upgrade, and when the real stats behind the Su-37 come out, you'll know, already the plane is easily a match for the MKI

1. Well link for stating taht its better tahn MKI. ??
2. Give me one news update about su37 which is recent .
3. Well currently MKI is better than any fighter in russian Air force . So please dont say about inferiority in this case. AS russia is not afraid of india attacking it and thus its no danger of giving india better components which it cannot itself afford.
4. Well uts ab upgrade . So still they are not in a position to buy new ones. Well which clearly states the amount of money they have with them .

why don't you compare the specs yourself if you're so curious, let yourself find out, i already know that in terms of range, the Ks-172 destroys anything, fine, i'll briefly compare both, 400+km range for Ks-172 vs. 203.8km AIM-54
Mach 5.4 AIM-54 vs. unknown
Ks-172 operating envelope 30,000m(no fighter can escape it) vs. (20,000m for the AIM-120C, so it can't engage a MiG-25) 30,500m
59.9kg warhead weight AIM-54 vs. 50kg warhead weight Ks-172

so, all in all, it's very close, with an unknown speed for the Ks-172, it clearly has a massive advantage(two-fold) over the AIM-54, it's operating envelope is crazy, same with AIm-54, Pheonix has a slight lead, but useless because no aircraft can fly above 30,000m anyways, but, the AIM-54 does have a larger warhead, meaning larger bang, BOOM

Well the speed and agility are two important factors which u missed out .

"good article. But u shud know that the flying hours for india /US /israel etc is well above 200. And a country which cannot even give its pilots the minimum specified flight hours sopmethin which dsnt cost that much but is as imp as teh machines capabilities in war. Then u urself have shown the monetary position of russian forces."

obviously, i think i mentioned that in my post, i know that it's not close to the flight hours of Indian and American pilots, common knowledge, somthing which doesn't cost that much, the dumbest thing i've heard today, something that doesn't cost that much, so, thousands of kilograms of fuel spent in less than a week, when fuel prices for a barrel were over $50, oh sure, not expensive(sarcasm) $3,500 maintenance work PER flight HOUR, not expensive(sarcasm) are you utterly retarded, aircraft are the second most expensive thing to keep in the air, in addition, Russia has the largest air force in the world, and i believe the largest navy, that's A LOT of do out of the pocket just trying to maintain all of that, including the world's second largest nuclear arsenal, largest biochemical arsenal,largest ground force and trying to keep their R and D projects on a steady path with an economy les than that of India's, so, take that into account, no offense, but i can't justt keep it in, your ******** small navy doesn't cost much to keep seaworthy, you don't have many aircraft, or tanks, and your infantry are treated like ****, so don't start to complain about Russia's condition, they have WAY more to take care of than India, no wonder you guys have all that extra money to get 200+ flight hours

Well its better to have a bird in hand than three in bushes. So its better to have a fighter jet with a trained pilot than three/4/even 10 with untrained pilots as they wont be able to use ht aircraft to its capabilities and the whole investment will be a waste.
Well lets state it like this. India is managing what it can very well . But russia is finding it hard to maintain what it already had befor eht ecold war. All naval programs stopped in between and are rotting or sold as junk. AF hsnt recieved a new aircraft in 15 years . Comone its not about india and russia comparison its about the fact that russia isnt rich nough to even have a single fighter jet program all by itself and so is forced to ask india to join in.and u expect it to continue with more than T50 S37 MIG1.42 SU37 su35 etc etc. dude be practical they will go procatical . Even US has just 2 programs running rite now.

"It faced problems in even starting the indian orders in time even after the payment of advance and the russian govt had to step in to change the head of mig and other changes to get it started."

are you reffering to the MiG-29K trade agreement, well, if you'vew been keeping up to date, they will be delivering them exactly as planned, starting in 2007 i believe, or something like that, forgot now

Well yes. there were news in india media stating concerns shown by indian govt about wether mikaloyan will be able to complete the orders in time .Since the money that was given as advance was given to the creditors and not invested in starting up with the aircraft.

http://www.royfc.com/acft_news_old_jan2.html
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...01/14/011.html
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/..._aviation.html

also, last link mentions an increase in funding by 30%

Well theres miles to go before they canstart inducting new aircrafts,. And yes know that by the time they are ready to induct new ones(financially) the PAK-FA will be ready.

there are no links for the last two, but you have to make the assumption based on the characteristics of the aircraft

the T-50 has a max weight of 20 tons, speed of 2,250 kph, alltitude of 18,800m, and flight range of 4,200-5,500 km(7,400 with in-flight refueling)

Su-37 has a maximum weight of 28-35 tons, speed of 2,500 kph to beincreased possibly above 3,000, alltitude of 18,000m, range of 3,700 km(6,500 with in-flight refueling)

will be using the Ks-172 and AA-13, but, the T-50 might just take the place of all aircraft, increase alltitude, speed a lot, the range is fine, and increase weapons armament

regarding the T-50 performing better than the MiG-29 much more efficiently, common sense, please don't ask links and waste my time to stupid things

now i'll look for those links regarding how Russia is interested in the Su-37

you know what, i can't find it, if you want you can either look for it as well, or, you ca just not believe me if you want, doesn't matter to me anyways, i know what's really happening

Well the point is russia is poor rite now as it needs to amintain a large soviet army which itself costs it a lot forcing it with nearly nothing for new induction .

[Dima]

perhaps you will also use the AL-41, but since it's an export version, the engine won't be as good as the original, even so and both weight the same, roughly, with the Su-37 having a heavier maximum weight

in-flight refueling, so, it can go longer without the need for inflight-refueling, saving you money and time, because you need to get the Tanker into the air, if the air is hostile, then there is a risk of the Tanker being destroyed, the mission has to be paused to refuel, even though in-flight refueling is great, the longer you can stay in the air without it, the better

Su-35 is for export, Brazil, the F-X

they want to put it up for export so bad that they even made a two seat trainer version for it, the Su-35UB

the Su-47 and MiG-1.42 are being offerred as exports, the Russian air force will not buy them

can you give me a link stating that India has agreed to give Russia money for the development of the T-50, because i haven't heard them donate any money, so far i think its Russia going in alone in this one for now

and, what other projects, you mean the AYAKS(or AJAX) hypersonic fighter aircraft(well, more of a multirole since their developing three versions for it, interceptor, fighter, and transport, all hypersonic) and that's it, they will start another project to replace their Tu-160 Blackjack's somewhere around 2006-2008, Su-39 will suffice for Ground Attack

right now, there are no other projects going on, except further upgrades for Flankers and Fulcrums(in both funds are provided by the company, not by government) the T-50 and AJAX, which is so close to being complete, starting in 2010, it will be operational, then you have the future bomber starting next year hopefully, and that's it, all the other's I-2000, Vityaz, S-54/55 are all cancelled

are you on crack lol, the F-22 is not lighter than the Su-37, buddy, stop dreaming

http://warfare.ru/?catid=279&linkid=2024

the F-22 weighs in at 36.3 tons, and the Su-37 weighs in at 35 tons

it's not dead, fool, it's not dead, if it were dead, they would have anounced that they're stopping it, but look, they keep taking funds from purchased Su-30's an puttting them into other upgrades and the Su-35/Su-37 projects

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/Su-37-2.htm

the Su-37 is just a prototype, but will become an actual aircraft, that's what i mean the "real" aircratf will become operational in 2007, hence, the reason why Russia hasn't even tried to order them right now

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su37/
third paragraph, last sentence

"U need to prove 2 things 1 is AIM54 really as efficeint as say AIM120 for fighter jets . and second if KS172 actually as good as AIM54 in terms of control speed and agility.Well lets put it like this if AIM54 can dsnt mean that KS172 can unless u prove it ."

AIM-54 compared to the AIM-120, against fighter jets, well the AIM-120 is inferior, obviously, it's role was for anti-AWACS and Tanker, the AIM-120 is specialized for fighter aircraft, almost anything airborne

for a missile designed to destroy an AWACS, you don't ned control speed, it's not like the AWACS is going to outmaneuver a 40G missile, how stubborn can you get, is there something that says" no, i can't destroy it because it's a fighter aircraft" no, there is no programming in that missile that indicates that, firstly, they both have the exact same roles, therfore, for the Russian to beat the AIM-54(that's what their intentions are with this missile) they will obviously make it do things that the Pheonix can, and even more, there's your answer, think about it, other than that, the missile isn't even out yet

Well but a hockey stick isnt as efficient in killing as a sword.And its easier to beat a girl by a hockey stick as she wont have a sword in her hand but the guy/frnd might have one ."

what was the point in that statement, was thata a joke, if so, hahah

here's another analogy, take an axe, you can cut wood with it, and kill a robber if needed

even though when you made the axe, you were probably just thinking about it's economic benefits, cutting down wood, it also was able to fulfill other things that you didn't necessarily want

http://www.rfforces.com/viewtopic.php?t=1548&start=40

it's posted by bison 24, it's his 1824th post to be exact, 9th paragraph, really big

http://www.intell.rtaf.mi.th/Publica...SukhoiSU27.pdf

here's some information on the Su-27 and variants, it's quite interesting, it says that Russia has shown great interest in the abilities of the Su-37

the Su-27SM has been in operation since 2004, and it is superior, it can do automated flights

yes, Russia and India have very warm and close ties, the way we should be, sorry if i insulted you

here, if you want to stay current with Russia's situation, demographically and economically, as well as Chechnya, check out my personal part of this forum, everyday, i commit myself to providing news on everything in Russia, read all of them, read about the budget surplus' growing and the trade balance growing, everything, investor market, how Chechnya is on a road of peace


here's the link, visit it everyday, really, it's a good source

"Well its better to have a bird in hand than three in bushes. So its better to have a fighter jet with a trained pilot than three/4/even 10 with untrained pilots as they wont be able to use ht aircraft to its capabilities and the whole investment will be a waste.
Well lets state it like this. India is managing what it can very well . But russia is finding it hard to maintain what it already had befor eht ecold war. All naval programs stopped in between and are rotting or sold as junk. AF hsnt recieved a new aircraft in 15 years . Comone its not about india and russia comparison its about the fact that russia isnt rich nough to even have a single fighter jet program all by itself and so is forced to ask india to join in.and u expect it to continue with more than T50 S37 MIG1.42 SU37 su35 etc etc. dude be practical they will go procatical . Even US has just 2 programs running rite now. "

let's look at this, your analogy, it doesn't taken into full what this situation is, Russia already has an image, of a superpower in the world, and to keep that, they need the largest air force that they can get, they may not get as many flight hours as other countries, but Russians have proven themselves time again that they are remarkable pilots, look at the amount of Russian aces compared to Ameican ones, and look how many German aircraft they destroyed, significantly more, yet they still had inferior training, in your analogy, you act as if the enemy pilots have no knowledge of the plane whatsoever, i'd take 3-4 below average pilots over 1 above average, you learn more in actual combat than in a simulator

Russia found it hard to manage what it had even before the cold war, you have no proof of this, and it is untrue, Russian naval projects are going swimmingly, look at the new Borei class Submarine, first one to be commissioned in 2006 or 2007, wrong, AF hasn't received a brand new aircraft since 1996, 9 years, but over the time, hundreds of aircraft have been modernized, so you can count that as new aircraft because their performance has increased, act7ually, Russia has even more than that, they also have Su-35BM and AJAX, Russia isn't rich enough, buddy, i'm glad i gave you that link for Russia's economy and such, you will learn a lot, and then you will look back here, and laugh at yourself, really, i garauntee it, btw Su-47 is company funded and so is the MiG 1.42, they're asking for money from China because, why waste your own money when you can waste that of another country's, also, they won't be able to complete the program fully, that's why they need some assistance, not much(70% on their own) that's how much they'll be able to complete

India is doing fine with what they have, well duhh, so would Russia if they had a navy, air force, and ground force that small, not to mention nuclear arms and biochemical facilities


http://warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57&start=0

i mentioned speed for the AIM-54, but there is no given speed for Ks-172, agillity, how would you measure that, amount of G's pulled?

"Well the point is russia is poor rite now as it needs to amintain a large soviet army which itself costs it a lot forcing it with nearly nothing for new induction ."

there you go, now you understand a little bit of what i'm saynig, they have a massive army inheritted from the Soviet Union, but, the thing you got wrong, Russia IS NOT poor, proove to me that they are really, i dare you, their foreign exchange and gold reserves is now larger than the US's

[ajaybhutani]

perhaps you will also use the AL-41, but since it's an export version, the engine won't be as good as the original, even so and both weight the same, roughly, with the Su-37 having a heavier maximum weight

Well look at these links
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...sia/pak-fa.htm
and
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=268951
last para

in-flight refueling, so, it can go longer without the need for inflight-refueling, saving you money and time, because you need to get the Tanker into the air, if the air is hostile, then there is a risk of the Tanker being destroyed, the mission has to be paused to refuel, even though in-flight refueling is great, the longer you can stay in the air without it, the better

Well we are talking about the air superiority fighter or a A2G attack fighter and not a recon aircraft that is supposed to hide itself when seen.Instead the way these platforms are designed they can destory anything in air.So clearly ur doubts
Extra range is really of no use esp when the difference is of the kind its there between MKI and su34.

Su-35 is for export, Brazil, the F-X

Well decide for urself firsly u said that they are supposed to be inducted by RUAf but couldnt provide with a link that states the same. BTW i think we were talking about SU34 and not su35.

they want to put it up for export so bad that they even made a two seat trainer version for it, the Su-35UB

Shows taht they have no intentions to induct it in RuaF

the Su-47 and MiG-1.42 are being offerred as exports, the Russian air force will not buy them

Where are u getting this stupid info from. ??
They are tech demonstrators for PAK-FA.

can you give me a link stating that India has agreed to give Russia money for the development of the T-50, because i haven't heard them donate any money, so far i think its Russia going in alone in this one for now

Its not donation its partnership like the one in brahmos.Check the first link in this post . And then answer this question?? A country which cannot afford to even have a single most imp fighter dev project running without foreign parnership u expect it to have multiple ones running. ??

and, what other projects, you mean the AYAKS(or AJAX) hypersonic fighter aircraft(well, more of a multirole since their developing three versions for it, interceptor, fighter, and transport, all hypersonic) and that's it, they will start another project to replace their Tu-160 Blackjack's somewhere around 2006-2008, Su-39 will suffice for Ground Attack

We were talking about Fighter aircrafts lets keep it to that.

[Dima]

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=268951

well, for this link, are you trying to prove that the Su-30MKIII will incorporate the AL-41 engine? i'm saying that it will mostly likely incorporate it, and it's says more powerful engine, but that doesn't mean that it will be on par with the AL-41 used in the Russian air forces, China has already orderd a bunch of Su-30MK2's

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...sia/pak-fa.htm

on your second link, can you please state what you are trying to prove, don't just give them to me blindly, but i think that you're getting at how Russia cannot do this alone, although that is true, it only mentions that russian financing using current amounts(remember, this was early 2004 when it was written) could only support 20-22% of the project, well, if a total of $1.5 billion is needed per year, 20% of that is
$300 million and 22% is $330 million, it also mentions that the design bureau's would only be able to donate a total of under $1 billion yearly for the project, well, if we assume that that would total of $900 million, add that with the $330 million, you get a total of $1.23 billion, it also fails to mention Russia's rapidly expanding economy in which the government will be able to provide more funding from the state, thus it might increase to 30%, potentially 40% by 2008, instead of the 20-22% it was in 2004, but, taking that $1.23 billion alone, that would equate to 82% of the entire project's needed funding yearly(that's not counting that Russia funding will increase yearly for this project to possibly 45% by the time it is due out), Russia is almost capable of paying on its own, but what's the point of wasting your money when you can waste another country's

actually, between the Su-34 and Su-30MKI, there is a significant difference in range, 25% difference, that's pretty considerable

Ajay, on another note, can you start typing more legibly, because i'm finding it hard to understand what you're trying to say, don't use l33t, please

"Well decide for urself firsly u said that they are supposed to be inducted by RUAf but couldnt provide with a link that states the same. BTW i think we were talking about SU34 and not su35."

yes, i was mistaken, sorry, the Su-35 is intended for exports, and the Su-37 is the advanced version of it for the Russian air force ONLY, at least i think so, i already gave you a link regarding how Russia is interested in purchasing the Su-37

" they want to put it up for export so bad that they even made a two seat trainer version for it, the Su-35UB"

just to reply to what i said, they are also developing a two-seater for the Su-37, i guess it will be the trainer for it, so yes, now we can deduce from this information that the Su-35 will probably be solely for export, and the Su-37 will be for the home defense

"Where are u getting this stupid info from. ??
They are tech demonstrators for PAK-FA."

buddy, your information is outdated, they WERE used as tech demonstrators, but now are available for export, thus, the change in designation from S-37 to Su-47(when it is only "S" it means that it is a project, and isn't a complete model) the change in designation showed to the export market that it is now available for export, look on Google, and MiG corporation just recently has started to refund the MiG-1.42 aircraft, you have to keep yourself updated monthly pal

can you please stop using imp, it's annoying using such a primitive word, what does it mean anyways, please use something more intelligent

as i already stated, Russia is almost able to bear the full load of all these aircraft developments, the new variants for the Su-27 series is provided solely by the company, the AJAX vehiccle is nearly complete, thus does not need much more funding, the T-50 is their only major development project

i was just commenting on Russia's future developments, just incase you didn't understand

[ajaybhutani]

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=268951

well, for this link, are you trying to prove that the Su-30MKIII will incorporate the AL-41 engine? i'm saying that it will mostly likely incorporate it, and it's says more powerful engine, but that doesn't mean that it will be on par with the AL-41 used in the Russian air forces, China has already orderd a bunch of Su-30MK2's

I
mentioned read the last para.
And thats for showing that We are jointly developing T50/PAK-Fa with russia. And theres a lot of news aqbout it on net. Well that is to show taht we are getting the AL41F in our AF at the same time russia is and maybe even before as we will us the stuff desgined for PAK-Fa for upgrades or next batches of MKI.

about MK2 and MK3. U are mistaken. The model china has is MKK2 which is not the same as MKII as MKII and MKIII are about the development stages about MKI(indian) and not MKK( chineese).

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...sia/pak-fa.htm

This link shows that PAK-Fa is a joint project as u asked for a link as a proof now dont at least argue with why i gave u somethin u urself asked for.

on your second link, can you please state what you are trying to prove, don't just give them to me blindly, but i think that you're getting at how Russia cannot do this alone, although that is true, it only mentions that russian financing using current amounts(remember, this was early 2004 when it was written) could only support 20-22% of the project, well, if a total of $1.5 billion is needed per year, 20% of that is
$300 million and 22% is $330 million, it also mentions that the design bureau's would only be able to donate a total of under $1 billion yearly for the project, well, if we assume that that would total of $900 million, add that with the $330 million, you get a total of $1.23 billion, it also fails to mention Russia's rapidly expanding economy in which the government will be able to provide more funding from the state, thus it might increase to 30%, potentially 40% by 2008, instead of the 20-22% it was in 2004, but, taking that $1.23 billion alone, that would equate to 82% of the entire project's needed funding yearly(that's not counting that Russia funding will increase yearly for this project to possibly 45% by the time it is due out), Russia is almost capable of paying on its own, but what's the point of wasting your money when you can waste another country's

1. Whereb does it mention that the beaurou can give 1B dollars for it a year. And year u might even be wrong about ur estimate tath only 1.5 B will be needed per year the cost could very well be 2B$ per year or even more..
2.Dude the project is already a joint development and further if ur calculations are so accurate then the russians would have already realised ur so called claims and gone for the project alone rather than sharing it with india.( after all the primary reason is finances.).

actually, between the Su-34 and Su-30MKI, there is a significant difference in range, 25% difference, that's pretty considerable

Well for long range bombing we need to use Long range bombers and they will do the job cheap and fast . Adn well the differecne si not good nough to convince india invest in SU34 for procurement. And yes what all u mentioned just takes into account the increased range of SU34 and ceiling What u failed to address are the aftermaths of teh
1. decreased speed.
2. the use of russian avionics taht were rejected while procuring MKI in favour of israeli french and indian avionics.

Ajay, on another note, can you start typing more legibly, because i'm finding it hard to understand what you're trying to say, don't use l33t, please

where did i use l33t??

"Well decide for urself firsly u said that they are supposed to be inducted by RUAf but couldnt provide with a link that states the same. BTW i think we were talking about SU34 and not su35."

yes, i was mistaken, sorry, the Su-35 is intended for exports, and the Su-37 is the advanced version of it for the Russian air force ONLY, at least i think so, i already gave you a link regarding how Russia is interested in purchasing the Su-37

Well a link that SU37/SU35 or even Su34 are gonna be inducted by RUAf. U havent even give a single link that dsnt date back to teh 90's. Talk about present what has happened to the projects in last 5 years and if the projects are about to complete in 2007 then wehre are the orders as building the production infrastructure takes time. For even LCA is about to be complete by 2008 and the orders have been placed for the same.

" they want to put it up for export so bad that they even made a two seat trainer version for it, the Su-35UB"

just to reply to what i said, they are also developing a two-seater for the Su-37, i guess it will be the trainer for it, so yes, now we can deduce from this information that the Su-35 will probably be solely for export, and the Su-37 will be for the home defense

Well first give me a link and second give me the links that are not decade old . Talk about the latest developments say last 3-4 years and not about the 90's.

"Where are u getting this stupid info from. ??
They are tech demonstrators for PAK-FA."

buddy, your information is outdated, they WERE used as tech demonstrators, but now are available for export, thus, the change in designation from S-37 to Su-47(when it is only "S" it means that it is a project, and isn't a complete model) the change in designation showed to the export market that it is now available for export, look on Google, and MiG corporation just recently has started to refund the MiG-1.42 aircraft, you have to keep yourself updated monthly pal

About updating myself thanks for an advise from a guy who dsnt eevn know that PAK-FA is a jiont development.
U again fail to give a link. Well They are technology demonstrators . The companies might invest whatsoever money in them but the russian govt isnt any more interested in them .About S37. Well Sukhoi need to concentrate on PAK-Fa and so funds are short ( for otherwise there would not have been collaboration with india on PAK-FA). and so cannot do much more about it . Its a tech demonstrator and since its very advvanced . It wont be available on sale . ( by ur logic that russia dsnt give latest stuff for export.). About Mig1.42 The condiction of mikaloyan is pathetic we all know taht. They need funding for it. And they can just ry withj china but chjineese are buzy with their own and furhter russia woudl not be interested in giving china all such technology.
And yes talk about all this but with a link/(s). to support urself.

can you please stop using imp, it's annoying using such a primitive word, what does it mean anyways, please use something more intelligent

imp = important

as i already stated, Russia is almost able to bear the full load of all these aircraft developments,

LOL.. Accept the facts Learn to accept them . Russia cannot even develop PAK-FA itself.

the new variants for the Su-27 series is provided solely by the company, the AJAX vehiccle is nearly complete, thus does not need much more funding, the T-50 is their only major development project

Well what happened to ur claim that SU37 and SU34 and SU35 etc will all be inducted in RUAF. U shud know that even for the uipgrades the money is coming from these companies and not the govt.

i was just commenting on Russia's future developments, just incase you didn't understand

Well u have been repeatedly saying that Russia is really rich it has a lot of projects going on . It will induct SU37 SU35 SU34 and everything without a link.

[Dima]

i believe that you are incorrect

http://warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28&start=0

it is the MK3, an no China is receiving the MK2 and MK3, well, the MK2 for sure, they've already ordered it, but not the MK3

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/..._variants.html

originally, they are called Su-30MKK2 and MKK3, but, they are originally for the Chinese forces, and greatly increase their performance against naval targets, but, Russia might make these models become available for export to other countries under the designation MK2/MK3

"Whereb does it mention that the beaurou can give 1B dollars for it a year. And year u might even be wrong about ur estimate tath only 1.5 B will be needed per year the cost could very well be 2B$ per year or even more.."

i got this information from one of the links that you provided me, check out your links, somewhere it mentions that it will cost approximately $1.5 billion yearly, i think it was the globalsecurity.org link, check it out, information directly from there, i said under $1 billion, so i estimated approximately $900 million, even if it were less, such as $700 million,, that would still account for 69% per year of the total project costs

"2.Dude the project is already a joint development and further if ur calculations are so accurate then the russians would have already realised ur so called claims and gone for the project alone rather than sharing it with india.( after all the primary reason is finances.)."

actually, no, as your link states, it would cost several more hundreds of millions of dollars to fund for the development and research of the engines, avionics alone would cost several billion dollars, the airframe, that is what Russia needs assistance in, that's why theyw ant a partner, look at your link, there are several other bundles of money that must be spent all together, to make this fighter real, engines, avionics, airframe, Russia is just chruning out money for it's general development

oh yes, the decreased speed, tell me something, what advantage, no, what significant advantage does speed offer, especially a differnece of only 237 kph's?Speed is a non-important factor in a fighter or bomber unless, you are for sure going to outrun a missile, neither of these aircraft can outrun an AIM-120, therefore, you should treat them equally in speed terms, because they both have an equal chance of getting hit by the AMRAAM, Speed, the only advantage to speed is that it allows your mission to be performed faster, but, also take into account, fast speeds also increase the amount of structural tension on the aircraft, and heat buildup, as well as stress, also, these maximum speeds are not really that important, because an aircraft cannot maintain these speeds for very long, therefore, the more important speed that you should consider is cruising speed, because aircraft can cruise at their cruisng speed for a long time, we should compare that instead, i'm not sure which one has a faster cruising speed

well, what can i say about avionics, Russia is intensely cooperating with France on development of avionics, they actually agreed to plan a UCAV vehciel for some time after 2010, i won't be able to proivde a link, because it's old news, it was on itaar-tass.ru/eng i believe, they agreed on this sometime in November, you can look for it if you want, what else can i say about Russian avionics other than that they are improving at a massively rapid pace, because of assistance from India, and France, and slight assistance from Israel i heard

the word imp, and a few other occurences, there was one where i was unable to understand what you were asking me, i can't find it now though

"Well a link that SU37/SU35 or even Su34 are gonna be inducted by RUAf. U havent even give a single link that dsnt date back to teh 90's. Talk about present what has happened to the projects in last 5 years and if the projects are about to complete in 2007 then wehre are the orders as building the production infrastructure takes time. For even LCA is about to be complete by 2008 and the orders have been placed for the same."

do you just ignore my links or something, i gave you a link that was relatively recent on how Russia is very intersted in the project, the Su-34 is already inducted, that's how i know you haven't even been looking into my links, they already have 20 of them, come on man, stay awake, i'm not sure about more orders for the Su-34, but since they're expected to use this aircraft to replace both the Su-24 and Tu-22, they will purchase many mroe in the coming future, Su-35, well, Russian air force will probably not induct it into the air force because it is being developed primarily for export, but there is still a chance to purchase it, though no reason, since Su-37 is more advanced, well, you have to understand that Su-37 is just prototype of the aircraft that is to come out in 2007, Russia is intersted in the project, because so far, it's really wowed them, but, they don't know whether or not to invest everything into their T-50, and make the majority of fighter regiments of T-50 aircraft, or to have a light heavy balance(2-1) like America(in which then they would probably incorporate the Su-37)

i think that the reason why Russia hasn't placed any orders is because they are unsure of what they want right now, in the next few years, i think that there will be a lot of information revealed about the Su-37 Teminator

regarding the two-seat Su-37

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ssia/su-37.htm
last sentence
http://www.danshistory.com/su37.html
at the very tpo, mentions single-seat/two-seat
http://www.flymig.com/aircraft/Su-37/
another one that states Russian air force is greatly interested in Su-37, second last sentence, and it also mentions that they are actively trying to pursue contracts for this aircraft on the export market, maybe they mean the Su-35, lol, wow, russian situation=so complicated
it also says known variants, and beside it states that there is a tw-seat version but with unknown designation
http://www.blue-chips.net/russia.htm
also mentions about the Su-34, and how it's flattened nose reduces RCS, again, last sentence indicates that Sukhoi is looking to develop a two-seta version

i think that's enouhg links for now

"About S37"

stop saying that, you make yourself look like a fool, it's Su-47, they were technology demonstrators, and are now available for export

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/arc...php/t-510.html
look at bison24's first post, a little down the page, he is a very intellectual person, i know him, he's also on rfforces.index.com, or something like that, it's in my favourites

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images...tjanuary04.pdf
middle of third paragraph mentions Russia's close ties with France, again, first paragraph of Forging Alliances, in the end mentions Russia's cooperation with France

also mentions in the second paragraph exactly what i said earleir, that they are working together on UAV's, and possibly UCAV's

in fact, EADS owns 10% of the Irkut company

it also mentions, never heard of this before, that the PM's of France and Russia have decided to create another fifth-generation fighter, that's odd

i know that PAK-FA is a joint development, i just didn't know when India joined Russia in this project

um, if i'm not mistaken, you're not exactly one who keeps up-to-date either, calling the Su-47 the S-37 still, and you're not really one to talk about my links, because i actually give links

http://www.rfforces.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=20

here's an interesting article, about 30% down the page, posted by Bison24, Su-30's and Su-27 aircraft have been equipped with a set of LO modifications

well, i can't find a "credible" source thats states the projects have been put up for export, but, i have given one in which Bison replied, let me look a little bit longer

yea, well, i cna't find the link, all you can do is either believe me, or just discard this information, but they HAVE restarted the project, both of them, they're up for export, by any country who wants them, i'm not denying their role as tech demonstrators, everyone knows that they were, but, now Sukhoi and MiG have decided to advertise the aircraft

"Well what happened to ur claim that SU37 and SU34 and SU35 etc will all be inducted in RUAF. U shud know that even for the uipgrades the money is coming from these companies and not the govt."
what did i say to negate these claims, other than that the Russian air force is in disarray over what their future air force is going to look like, i'm merely providing speculation, on the news that i've been reading, the money is coming from these companies and not the uprgades, can you elaborate, are you saying that funding for development of upgrades is coming from the companies, yes, that is correct, but the government still chips in money to support these companies

"Well u have been repeatedly saying that Russia is really rich it has a lot of projects going on . It will induct SU37 SU35 SU34 and everything without a link."
my God, are you insanely stupid, look at the links that say that Russia is deeply interested n the Su-37 project, and they're modern, the Su-35 is most likely for export, and the Russian air force ahs already acquired the Su-34

[ajaybhutani]

i believe that you are incorrect

http://warfare.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28&start=0

it is the MK3, an no China is receiving the MK2 and MK3, well, the MK2 for sure, they've already ordered it, but not the MK3

Well what i means was that in that link they were talking about the developments for MKI which was in stages of MKI MKII and MKIII where MKIII is the final MKi these are saperate from the Chineese series ( they are developed and produced by different companies.

look at the vayu sena link i provided

ginal contract, Su-30s would be delivered to the IAF in four batches:

* The first batch (Su-30MK-I) of 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1997. These were 'standard' Su-30s (a development of the Su-27UB) and contained 100% (probably) Russian components and are primarily sir-superiority aircraft only. These fighters were first delivered to India at Lohegaon AFS in March 1997. They were inducted into the IAF on 11 June 1997 by the then Prime Minister, Inder Kumar Gujral. These planes are currently in service with IAF with serial nos SB001 to SB008 in the No. 24 Hunting Hawks squadron based at Lohegaon AFS.

* The second batch (Su-30MK-IIs) of another 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1998 and would be fitted with Sextant Avionique's avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel's IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver).

* The third batch (Su-30MK-IIIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 1999 and would feature canard foreplanes

* The fourth and final batch (Su-30MKIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 2000 and would add the AL-31FP turbofans.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/..._variants.html

originally, they are called Su-30MKK2 and MKK3, but, they are originally for the Chinese forces, and greatly increase their performance against naval targets, but, Russia might make these models become available for export to other countries under the designation MK2/MK3

the russian nomenclature is quit confusing.And this is a good example of that.

"Whereb does it mention that the beaurou can give 1B dollars for it a year. And year u might even be wrong about ur estimate tath only 1.5 B will be needed per year the cost could very well be 2B$ per year or even more.."

i got this information from one of the links that you provided me, check out your links, somewhere it mentions that it will cost approximately $1.5 billion yearly, i think it was the globalsecurity.org link, check it out, information directly from there, i said under $1 billion, so i estimated approximately $900 million, even if it were less, such as $700 million,, that would still account for 69% per year of the total project costs

it dsnt . In fact none does. It merely states

The new airplane is being proposed to be brought from the concept design to a prototype series in less than 9 years. Historically, fourth and fifth generation fighters have not been created in less than 15 years. The Russian government has promised to allocate 1.5 billion dollars for the PAK FA through 2010. But the Russian Air Force is receiving less than 200 million dollars a year during this period, and will spend it primarily on other needs.

The prices and sources of funding will determine the destiny of the whole program. To date officials agree that the program will cost $1.5 billion. However, $1.5 billion is the sum needed for creating a new generation of avionics for the fighter (considering the fact that pre-production models of the phased array have already been produced, and will soon be tested). Completion of the AL-41F engine (present readiness is 30 percent) will require, in the opinion of the boss of Rosaviakosmos, 600 - 800 million dollars. Saturn said that launching of production of the AL-41F engine would take $150 million. An improved version of the AL-31F will be used on the aircraft originally (though it is not clear how these heavy motors are reconciled with the concept of a 20-ton fighter). The upgrade of these engines will require expenditures of 1.2-1.5 billion dollars. And finally, designers will have to spend several hundred millions of dollars on creating a new airframe.

State financing will cover not more than 20-22 percent of the cost of the development of the PAK FA. It will thus be necessary to draw extrabudgetary sources of funding, lending the development program a principle of openness for international cooperation. In the opinion of experts, export income, if it is taken from the plants, can provide not more than 1 billion dollars. It is maintained that the insufficient amounts can be received from foreign partners.

Stating that even though official say taht 1.5 B is needed but that will be the sun needed in just avionics. Add to it th engoine , upgrades, new airframe etc etc . So clearly the cost is surely above 1.5B$ even in speculation and not talking about cost overruns. So it can every well be 2B$.
And yes it say that the export income is 1B$. And thats the total amount. A good amount will go in provicing upgrades for the fighters to be delivered. Or upgrades to the russian AF( as the upgrade cost of fighters was paid by These companies instaed of the govt. They need to invest in missile developments and dev of newer bombs. which will also take money.
And also money to invest into other programs they might have. For if SU34 is in development then they even need moeny for its developemnt TD's and making manufacturing plants. Add to it a fact taht the money is not guaranteed . State is just giving 200 m$ so clearly a lot of deficit is ther. They cannot even hope to make the avionics by themselves. And then the airframe and engine remain. So a lot needs to be invested which is missing.
[QUTOE=]
"2.Dude the project is already a joint development and further if ur calculations are so accurate then the russians would have already realised ur so called claims and gone for the project alone rather than sharing it with india.( after all the primary reason is finances.)."

actually, no, as your link states, it would cost several more hundreds of millions of dollars to fund for the development and research of the engines, avionics alone would cost several billion dollars, the airframe, that is what Russia needs assistance in, that's why theyw ant a partner, look at your link, there are several other bundles of money that must be spent all together, to make this fighter real, engines, avionics, airframe, Russia is just chruning out money for it's general development
[/QUOTE]

Tahts the whole point. They need partners because they cant make it theirselves and so they chose india .

[QUTOE=]
oh yes, the decreased speed, tell me something, what advantage, no, what significant advantage does speed offer, especially a differnece of only 237 kph's?Speed is a non-important factor in a fighter or bomber unless, you are for sure going to outrun a missile, neither of these aircraft can outrun an AIM-120, therefore, you should treat them equally in speed terms, because they both have an equal chance of getting hit by the AMRAAM, Speed, the only advantage to speed is that it allows your mission to be performed faster, but, also take into account, fast speeds also increase the amount of structural tension on the aircraft, and heat buildup, as well as stress, also, these maximum speeds are not really that important, because an aircraft cannot maintain these speeds for very long, therefore, the more important speed that you should consider is cruising speed, because aircraft can cruise at their cruisng speed for a long time, we should compare that instead, i'm not sure which one has a faster cruising speed
[/QUOTE]
Well it shud be MKI for normally higher speed is accompanied by higher cruise speed.
And about teh speed i have given an argument in another thread.
[QUTOE=]
well, what can i say about avionics, Russia is intensely cooperating with France on development of avionics, they actually agreed to plan a UCAV vehciel for some time after 2010, i won't be able to proivde a link, because it's old news, it was on itaar-tass.ru/eng i believe, they agreed on this sometime in November, you can look for it if you want, what else can i say about Russian avionics other than that they are improving at a massively rapid pace, because of assistance from India, and France, and slight assistance from Israel i heard
[/QUOTE]
Well about assistance shud beindirect. Clearly they took india bec we made some better avioncis than them for MKI . Also we have israeli support and help all thru our projects .

the word imp, and a few other occurences, there was one where i was unable to understand what you were asking me, i can't find it now though

imp = important

"Well a link that SU37/SU35 or even Su34 are gonna be inducted by RUAf. U havent even give a single link that dsnt date back to teh 90's. Talk about present what has happened to the projects in last 5 years and if the projects are about to complete in 2007 then wehre are the orders as building the production infrastructure takes time. For even LCA is about to be complete by 2008 and the orders have been placed for the same."

do you just ignore my links or something, i gave you a link that was relatively recent on how Russia is very intersted in the project, the Su-34 is already inducted, that's how i know you haven't even been looking into my links, they already have 20 of them, come on man, stay awake, i'm not sure about more orders for the Su-34, but since they're expected to use this aircraft to replace both the Su-24 and Tu-22, they will purchase many mroe in the coming future, Su-35, well, Russian air force will probably not induct it into the air force because it is being developed primarily for export, but there is still a chance to purchase it, though no reason, since Su-37 is more advanced, well, you have to understand that Su-37 is just prototype of the aircraft that is to come out in 2007, Russia is intersted in the project, because so far, it's really wowed them, but, they don't know whether or not to invest everything into their T-50, and make the majority of fighter regiments of T-50 aircraft, or to have a light heavy balance(2-1) like America(in which then they would probably incorporate the Su-37)

My fault for not seeing the link for SU34. But for SU37 theres not link. Well we never say taht the SU37 might go in RUAF. But saying that it will go in RUAF . is somthing that cannot be said without a link . And taht was a reason for all this discussion.

i think that the reason why Russia hasn't placed any orders is because they are unsure of what they want right now, in the next few years, i think that there will be a lot of information revealed about the Su-37 Teminator

well tahts good For india wants see terminator and others a lot better so taht they can use the stuff in their MKI next batches

regarding the two-seat Su-37

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ssia/su-37.htm
last sentence
http://www.danshistory.com/su37.html
at the very tpo, mentions single-seat/two-seat
http://www.flymig.com/aircraft/Su-37/
another one that states Russian air force is greatly interested in Su-37, second last sentence, and it also mentions that they are actively trying to pursue contracts for this aircraft on the export market, maybe they mean the Su-35, lol, wow, russian situation=so complicated
it also says known variants, and beside it states that there is a tw-seat version but with unknown designation
http://www.blue-chips.net/russia.htm
also mentions about the Su-34, and how it's flattened nose reduces RCS, again, last sentence indicates that Sukhoi is looking to develop a two-seta version

i think that's enouhg links for now

Well they are all speculations taht Russia might probably induct. And we all believe that these speculations have a chance of getting right. But again we can not be sure. like we can be about PAK-Fa as for that russia has already partnered with india showing its due interest ( otherwise u dont call foriegn partners in the projects.

"About S37"

stop saying that, you make yourself look like a fool, it's Su-47, they were technology demonstrators, and are now available for export

they are the names for hte same aircraft

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/arc...php/t-510.html
look at bison24's first post, a little down the page, he is a very intellectual person, i know him, he's also on rfforces.index.com, or something like that, it's in my favourites

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images...tjanuary04.pdf
middle of third paragraph mentions Russia's close ties with France, again, first paragraph of Forging Alliances, in the end mentions Russia's cooperation with France

I know about russias good ties with France and their joint cooperation in avionics.Stil thanks fr he links.
ABout 1.42/44 i think the aircraft didnt even flew. And yes MIg will need to manage he finances by itself . And we know how mch it costs to make a 5th gen fighter. In fact they are tehn wasting resources by making 2 fifth gen fighters. Its costs money and even american coudlnt afford to make 2 they preffered only one like F22. Well though what remains to be seen is what happened after the mig cheif was changed recently by the govt.

also mentions in the second paragraph exactly what i said earleir, that they are working together on UAV's, and possibly UCAV's

in fact, EADS owns 10% of the Irkut company

it also mentions, never heard of this before, that the PM's of France and Russia have decided to create another fifth-generation fighter, that's odd

Well i did hear about the same news. Though there were no follow up news unlike in case of the ones with india where apparently the specs have been finalized and work in going on.

um, if i'm not mistaken, you're not exactly one who keeps up-to-date either, calling the Su-47 the S-37 still, and you're not really one to talk about my links, because i actually give links

Well SU47 and S37 are both anmes of the same aircraft project . So no harm in using them both in place of each other.

http://www.rfforces.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=20

here's an interesting article, about 30% down the page, posted by Bison24, Su-30's and Su-27 aircraft have been equipped with a set of LO modifications

well, i can't find a "credible" source thats states the projects have been put up for export, but, i have given one in which Bison replied, let me look a little bit longer

yea, well, i cna't find the link, all you can do is either believe me, or just discard this information, but they HAVE restarted the project, both of them, they're up for export, by any country who wants them, i'm not denying their role as tech demonstrators, everyone knows that they were, but, now Sukhoi and MiG have decided to advertise the aircraft

well are u talking about Mig1.42 and SU47/S37 then k.. i will go for the thing that Mig1.42 was started but we all know about finances of Mig corp. And the time they wil need to make it.
About Sukhoi. Do u really think they are capable nough to handle two at a time while the PAK-Fa is supposed to be just the SU47/S37 without the FSW.

"Well what happened to ur claim that SU37 and SU34 and SU35 etc will all be inducted in RUAF. U shud know that even for the uipgrades the money is coming from these companies and not the govt."
what did i say to negate these claims, other than that the Russian air force is in disarray over what their future air force is going to look like, i'm merely providing speculation, on the news that i've been reading, the money is coming from these companies and not the uprgades, can you elaborate, are you saying that funding for development of upgrades is coming from the companies, yes, that is correct, but the government still chips in money to support these companies

U didnt supplement ur claim for SU37 that it will be inducted . Evthin was more of speculations.
[QUTOE=]
"Well u have been repeatedly saying that Russia is really rich it has a lot of projects going on . It will induct SU37 SU35 SU34 and everything without a link."
my God, are you insanely stupid, look at the links that say that Russia is deeply interested n the Su-37 project, and they're modern, the Su-35 is most likely for export, and the Russian air force ahs already acquired the Su-34[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Well for SU34 i missed the link in the first read. For SU37/35 i dont think there was any link provided for confirmed purchase by RuAf. They are speculations that they might . and not taht it will..

[Dima]

no, no, upgrades for their aircraft are paid by the government, solely by the government, the development for these upgrades is paid for primarily by the actual company, and a little bit from the government

also, the link mentioned osmething like only $300-400 million more will be needed for the engine development, and some other numbers, can you give me the link again

"and making manufacturing plants:"
actually, they won't make a manufacturing plant, they already have two major one, sKomsomolsk-na-Amure and Irkutsk, either one gets the aircraft, i forgot which one is charged with the production

yes, i don't understand how that speed comment got here?

but i did give links before regarding how Russia is interested, although non of them actually stated any procurement plans, Russia is really messed up, hardly anyone knows what's actually going to happen, we can speculate what we want(aka ME)lol but in the end, we don't know what's going to happen sadly, although i wish i knew

personally, i think that if the Su-37(single-seat) is inducted, so will the two-seat be inducted, maybe as an advanced interceptor, or trainer aircraft

no, S-37 is outdated, stay current, use Su-47, it sounds better too

the MiG 1.44 aircraft flew, i think 4 times, but only once publicly, i'm not entirely sure, but i know that it flew 100%, they aren't developing it further, i think that they're selling it as is, MiG 1.44, not 1.42 with all the glamorous stealth features, so, i don't think they're wasting any money with developing this aircraft further, but then again, i've also heard reports where they state that they are going ahead with development, who know's what's happening in Russia

actually, MiG Corp, i believe that they can handle themselves, because of their recent fighter acquisitions, i'll give you the numbers later, Algeria lone is going to buy 80 or 85 MiG-29's, but Sukhoi, i think that they can manage relatively well, for their finances, which are most likely, just going to keep going up, especially after the F-15 is phased out of American service,no one in their right mind will purchase a possibly $400 million bird(by the time it comes out this September or October, offical IOC)and thus, to compensate. they will purchase either Typhoon, $58 million, or Rafale $56 million

but nonetheless, they are short of funds to do EVERYTHING by themselves

there are no confirmed purchases or acquisitions of the Su-37 or Su-35 by Russia, they were merely stating that Russia is intensely interested in the project, but the Su-34, would oyu like me to give you the link again, it's a really good site, information on everything

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00428001

[cooldw57]

Has there been any discussion on JSF vs EuroFighters/Su 37/Rafale/FA-22 ?

[ajaybhutani]

Has there been any discussion on JSF vs EuroFighters/Su 37/Rafale/FA-22 ?

i dont think so, but u can start a threat if u want