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F-14D vs F-35C

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  • F-14D vs F-35C

    In the F/A-18E/F vs F-14 thread, it's been proven that the F-14 and it's Phoenix missile is far superior to it's successor, the F/A-18F Super Hornet. I thought of this comparison when I found that the first F-35 is making it's first flight in the same month that the last F-14 is being retired in.

    The F-35C Joint Strike Fighter may be a (very expensive)paper plane today, but i think there is enough information on it to make a comparison, as the two will never be together on the same carrier deck.

  • #2
    Originally posted by hello
    In the F/A-18E/F vs F-14 thread, it's been proven that the F-14 and it's Phoenix missile is far superior to it's successor, the F/A-18F Super Hornet.
    With or without the Phoenix, an F-14D Super Tomcat could kill any Hornet with its superior speed and AN/ALQ-126 jamming. Against an F-15 and without the Phoenix, I'd say it all boils down to pilot skill and experience. But with the AIM-54C, its just superior to the F-15 as well, hands down.

    In other words, if you get on the wrong side of a Tomcat pilot with an AIM-54C, you're doomed!


    • #3
      Depends on the ability of the Tomcat and the Pheonix to detect the JSF. In terms of performance I'd pick the Tomcat hands down (for air to air) but stealth (depending on how stealthy the JSF turns out to be) is a pretty damn big advantage as far as survivability goes.


      • #4
        I was referring only to Tomcat vs. all 4th gen. fighters. They say the F/A-18 has some stealth features too, but I hardly doubt it.


        • #5
          The JSF C is a 5th gen plane, and that's what the F-14D is against here. The JSF is much more expensive than the F-14 but don't forget that the JSF is far cheaper to maintain. If the F-35 is carrying the internal payload of 2 AMRAAMs(1 per bay) or modified to carry 6 AMRAAMs internally, it's stealth will win it. If it's carrying external payload, like 8 extra external AMRAAMs and 2 to 4 Sidewinders, the stealth is partially lost, and the F-14 might just be able to get a phoenix lock. Even if the F-35 is carrying a stealth payload, if the battle gets into WVR, the JSF will be lucky to escape the Sidewinders and get into guns range. The only way an unmodified F-35C can cover both BVR and WVR is by carrying an AMRAAM in one bay and an ASRAAM in the other bay . If modified, it can carry 4 AMRAAMs and 2 ASRAAMs, in which case it has the edge in BVR with stealth and in WVR with the ASRAAM over the AIM-9M(not X), Tomcat's older version of the Sidewinder. But it's not known how stealthy the JSF is or how effective the ASRAAM is or if the JSF will get to carry AAMs on the main internal hardpoints.


          • #6
            Spooonman you were looking for cost info:

            F-35 cost rose 7.7%
            Posted by : csaayman on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 08:36 AM

            09/04/2006: The Pentagon reported on Friday that the total cost of the Lockheed Martin F-35 program has risen by $20 billion, a 7.7% increase in the last year.

            The Pentagon estimates the total cost to develop the 3 versions of the aircraft and build 2,400 aircraft for the Air Force, Navy and Marines at $276.5 billion. The program, the largest US weapons program ever, will span at least 20 years. The cost increase is mainly due to rising materials cost and expected inflation.

            Congress included $120 million in the fiscal 2006 budget that was approved in December for F-35 contractors to buy “long lead items” such as manufacturing equipment, materials and some initial parts and assemblies. Basically it is a down-payment on the first 5 aircraft.

            The first flight of the F-35 is expected to take place in early fall. Ground testing of the first prototype is on schedule. The first production version will be completed by 2009, by which time testing would be completed.


            This is about $115m per aircraft. I read somewhere and cant find it now that others are saying $130m.

            Remember though that the F-22 cost has risen to 360m.

            So relatively and comparatively its still looks like a bargain.

            Last edited by rickusn; 07 May 06,, 15:59.


            • #7
              Originally posted by rickusn
              This is about $115m per aircraft. I read somewhere and cant find it now that others are saying $130m.

              Remember though that the F-22 cost has risen to 360m.

              So relatively and comparatively its still looks like a bargain.

              What highsea was quoting of price of about 100M USD for raptors not much time ago.
              Hala Madrid!!


              • #8
                Highsea may have been quoting an out-of-date fly-away cost figure.

                That figure varies by sources from 130m-160m.

                In any event 183 aircraft are to be built as of now.

                The total proram cost is stated by various sources as 66 to 7Ob.

                The lower is the one that is the most credible for th etime being. But the higher certainly isnt an exaggeration by any means.

                If its the higher then the cost per aircraft will be over 380m and that w/o including some $50m-100m each that is estimated to make it a highly capable Strike platform.

                These aircraft are far from cheap but dont look for less than 183 to be bought.

                At least have 1/2 maybe over 100(I forget now)already been contracted for.

                It does have air-ground capability now but it is quite basic and rudimentary at least from how I understand the issues.


                • #9
                  More on the Raptor:

                  About five aircraft are now being delivered every two months.

                  The 27th fighter squadron now has its full 24 plane complement and the 94th will have 24 sometime this fall.

                  The goal now is to evetually have seven 18 plane squadrons.

                  For 126 combat-coded aircraft. The other 57 are to be used for training, in depot level maintenance, attrition reserve, major modifications & modernizations, test & evaluation and research & development among other uses.

                  Three at Langley VA, 2 at Holloman NM, 1 at Hickham Hawaii and one at Elmendorf Alaska.

                  The two at Holloman replacing the two F-117 squadrons that are to be retired.

                  Of course the USAF is still lobbying for more F-22s and all US military plans are subject to change w/o notice.


                  • #10
                    And more:

                    Currently, the F-22 Raptor flies at four U.S. bases:

                    Development and modernization testing is conducted at Edwards AFB.

                    Tactics development and future FOT&E will be conducted at Nellis AFB.

                    A full squadron of Raptors is based at Tyndall AFB, Fla., for pilot and maintainer training.

                    Raptor aircraft are being delivered to and are flying at Langley AFB, Va. The 1st Fighter Wing’s 27th Fighter Squadron of Air Combat Command is the first operational squadron to fly the F-22 Raptor.


                    • #11
                      And More:

                      F-22 News
                      Lockheed Martin delivers F-22 Raptor to second operational squadron

                      March 5, 2006 (by Jeff Hollenbeck) - The 94th Fighter Squadron, famous for its historic "Hat in the Ring" insignia and legendary aviator Eddy Rickenbacker, began receiving F-22 Raptors from Lockheed Martin today.

                      Two F-22A Raptors taxi down the runway at Langley AFB, Virigina. The two 5th Generation stealthy, air dominance fighters are assigned to the second operational squadron in the U.S. Air Force.

                      The two Raptors will join F-22s flying today as part of the 1st Fighter Wing's 27th Fighter Squadron at Langley Air Force Base, Va. Lockheed Martin has completed final assembly on 71 of the 107 fighters now on contract, and 63 have been delivered.

                      "This is another great milestone in the history of the F-22 Program," said Larry Lawson, Lockheed Martin Executive Vice President and F-22 Program General Manager. "The F-22 will dominate airspace anywhere around the globe, around the clock, and survive in contested airspace better than any other aircraft in the world."

                      "Today's deliveries speak to the continued success of the program," Lawson added, "which includes a key milestone we surpassed in January by meeting our Congressional commitment to deliver 37 F-22 Raptors to the U.S. Air Force in an 18 month period."

                      The Air Force declared initial operational capability for the Raptor in December, and it is already flying operational missions in support of homeland defense. "We are proud to build such a sophisticated, 5TH Generation stealth fighter that can do things better than we ever imagined," Lawson said.

                      "Today is a great day in the history of the 94th Fighter Squadron," said Lt. Col. Dirk Smith, 94th FS Commander. "It's good to have some of our own iron on the ramp."

                      The 94th FS legacy of being a frontline fighter unit spans from World War I to operations in the Persian Gulf Region. This unit has been a key player in the fight to gain and maintain air superiority.

                      The F-22 dominates any adversary through unmatched performance achieved through stealth, supercruise speed, agility, precision and a complete view of the battlespace achieved with the advanced sensor suite embedded in the aircraft. The Raptor will enable combat commanders to change the way wars are fought over the next 40 years.

                      In addition to the active air force, pilots with the 192nd Virginia Air National Guard in Richmond are also flying F-22 Raptors. The F-22 Raptor is currently flying at three other bases across the United States:
                      Testing is conducted at Edwards AFB, Calif.
                      Tactics development is ongoing at Nellis AFB, Nev.
                      A full squadron of Raptors is based at Tyndall AFB, Fla., for pilot and maintainer training.


                      • #12
                        Sure the phoenix flys far, but it's relatively easier to dodge this missile, plus F14D onboard radar will have a hard time detect JSF and acquire a lock. I say in BVR F14D has no chances against it


                        • #13
                          And more:

                          Stealth spending at the Pentagon
                          Posted on: May. 5th, 2006 ||
                          The Air Force wants to expand its fleet of F-22 Raptors. But at $130 million apiece, these stealthy planes from Lockheed Martin Corp. are the most expensive fighters ever. So the Pentagon is proposing to buy its next 20 Raptors piecemeal: sections of the fuselage in fiscal 2007, much of the innards in future years.

                          Senator John McCain (R-Ariz.) smells something funny here. He says the Air Force is trying to minimize the near-term expense of the F-22s while ensuring that eventually Congress will feel obliged to fund all 20 planes. After all, lawmakers don't want voters to learn that a bunch of half-built fighters are parked in a hangar somewhere. "This approach hamstrings Congress to continue supporting the program, without regard for possible spiraling costs, slips in schedule, or material changes to specifications," McCain told BusinessWeek in an e-mail interview.

                          McCain and other budget hawks say they're seeing more of this kind of gimmickry as the Pentagon strains to maintain the costly occupation of Iraq. A member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, McCain is set to become chairman of the panel next year. In coming days, the once and possibly future Presidential candidate expects to back a slate of acquisition-reform proposals to be introduced by Senator John Warner (R-Va.), the current committee chairman.


                          • #14
                            And more:

                            Flaw Could Shorten Raptors' Lives
                            Recent F-22A headlines

                            Flaw Could Shorten Raptors' Lives

                            Tyndall AFB receives F-22 maintenance trainer

                            F-22 CTF tests new AIM-120D missile noise & vibration

                            Raptors to Thunder Over Louisville [updated]
                            news archive»
                            The F-22A Raptor has been designed with a service life of 8,000 flying hours, but a faulty manufacturing process discovered four months ago may cause a key structural component in 90 of the new fighters to age prematurely, officials said Monday.
                            04-05-2006 - Marietta, Ga. -- The "forward boom frames" in the 62-foot-long fighter are constructed of titanium, a lightweight but extremely strong metal, and are used to anchor the aircraft's wings to its fuselage, said Air Force spokesman Doug Karas. During routine testing in December, Karas said, officials discovered that the titanium components may have been "improperly" treated, creating the possibility that the metal would not last as long as it is supposed to.

                            The flawed components, Karas said, "do not affect safety of flight and, consequently, no restrictions have been put on F-22 flight operations."

                            The problem affects Raptors No. 4017 through 4107, including most of the 66 Raptors that already have been delivered to the Air Force and several dozen more still being manufactured, Karas said. There are 23 Raptors assigned to Tyndall Air Force Base for F-22 pilot training with another six scheduled to arrive in the next year.

                            "This is not a result of improper design, but an issue with one supplier's manufacturing process," Karas said in a statement to The News Herald.

                            A spokesman with the Lockheed Martin Corp., prime contractor for the F-22, said Monday the company is working closely with Air Force experts to determine the extent of the problem. Structural tests including "fatigue" tests of the fuselage booms are continuing, said company spokesman Joe Quimby.

                            Under a "heat treat" process, the titanium boom frames are raised to a high temperature in order to "achieve the desired grain structure" in the metal, Karas said. "A section of the forward boom frames under investigation may not have been held at this temperature long enough" to reach the targeted strength, he said.

                            The trade publication Defense News reported Monday that it will cost about $1 billion to fix the flawed boom frames, but both Karas and Quimby flatly denied that allegation.

                            Raptor program officials also have identified the need to reinforce the aft boom in 41 of 73 Raptors to strengthen the juncture where the tail is attached to the fuselage, according to Air Force officials quoted by Defense News. (Of those 73 aircraft, 66 also are affected by the forward boom heat-treatment flaws, officials said.)

                            An Air Force spokesman told Defense News that the discovery occurred as part of the normal testing process for each new aircraft design.

                            "As the aircraft come down the production line, they continue to test the fleet," said Maj. Keith Scheirmann, chief of Raptor heavy maintenance and modifications at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. "Sometimes, we find areas where we want to go back and enhance the capability or upgrade the aircraft," he told the publication.

                            Still, fixing the problem in each airplane could require removing the wings to inspect the boom area, a time-intensive and expensive process, officials said.

                            The Air Force and Lockheed Martin are conducting further tests at a company facility to determine the severity of the problems and hope to have answers by the end of May.

                            The Defense Department and Congress have agreed to cap the F-22 program at 183 aircraft. Lockheed Martin has contracts to build another 107 of the advanced fighters, Quimby said.

                            Photo: USAF

                            66 delivered 17 T&E, 23 Flight Training, 26 Combat-coded(24 27th FS, 2 94th FS)

                            The first 17 are T&E aircraft. One of which is now a static trainer at Tyndall after its retirement from T&E use.

                            The Tyndall training squadron will have 29 aircraft by years end.

                            And there will be will be 48(26 now) aircraft total in the two combat squadrons the 27th and 94th.

                            So of 183 at least 94 aircraft will have been deliverd by the end of the year.

                            This program is unlikely to be canceled but it remains under severe scrutiny.

                            This program has taken the total # of aircraft required to keep the combat squadrons fully stocked to unparrelled and unprecedented levels.

                            With seven squadrons of 18 aircraft each(126 total). a 29 aircraft training squadron and 17 T&E aircraft leaves only 11 of 183 to be in depot level maintenance and attrition reserve.

                            Its unheard of.

                            Ive also heard that the USAF is contemplating on having seven 24 plane combat squadrons(168 Total) with only 183 aircraft.

                            Now that would be something!!

                            This would mean combining all training and T&E aircraft into the combat sqauadrons leaving 14 aircraft for depot maintenance and attrition reserve..

                            Not to mention bringing the 45 aircraft in training and T&E service up to combat standards.

                            The trainining aircraft should be quite easy. But the T&E aircraft Im not so sure.
                            Last edited by rickusn; 07 May 06,, 20:33.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rickusn
                              And more:

                              Flaw Could Shorten Raptors' Lives
                              Recent F-22A headlines
                              OOps, Posted this and the tail boom flaw on a new thread.

                              Sorry Rick. Didn't think about looking for 22 post on the JSF thread
                              Last edited by Gun Grape; 07 May 06,, 20:43.