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  • China working on new "Super-10"

    http://www.janes.com/defence/air_for...0109_2_n.shtml

    Looks like the J-10 is getting an upgrade with TVC.

  • #2
    I just hope the Eurofighter could defeat this plane. I would hate the Chinese superceeding the West in 5th generation fighters.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Captain Drunk
      I just hope the Eurofighter could defeat this plane. I would hate the Chinese superceeding the West in 5th generation fighters.
      I think eventually China will overtake all the European countries (when compared individually) when it comes to military hardware. European countries are become more and more concerned with social assistence programs for their citizens and less concerned with military superority. With China's rapidly growing economy and determination to update and improve its military hardware and capabilities its likely that at some point in time they'll become second only to the U.S, thats still a ways off mind you.

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      • #4
        European military industries wheren't closer to US since 50 years. I think the new world market situation causes a bigger headache to the USA after sleeping for several years.
        >Facit Omnia Voluntas<

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        • #5
          I don't expect a serious threat to western aircraft by the J-10.
          While the flying performance doesn't seem bad It is believed that avionics lack a lot in contrast.
          And as far as China isn't able to produce own engines like they tried with their WP-15s and aren't able to produce own electronics and radars the Chinese aren't a match in aircraft development.
          Does anybody know which russian radar will be fitted in the J-10. From my sourc4es it should be the Phazotron Zhuk-10.
          >Facit Omnia Voluntas<

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          • #6
            Originally posted by JG73
            I don't expect a serious threat to western aircraft by the J-10.
            While the flying performance doesn't seem bad It is believed that avionics lack a lot in contrast.
            And as far as China isn't able to produce own engines like they tried with their WP-15s and aren't able to produce own electronics and radars the Chinese aren't a match in aircraft development.
            Does anybody know which russian radar will be fitted in the J-10. From my sourc4es it should be the Phazotron Zhuk-10.
            The part about the radar is just Russian propoganda. Think about this, Russians have been bidding for radar contracts on Chinese planes for a while, but they've struck out pretty much everytime. Currently, J-10 is using Chinese radar + avionics and I don't see that changing with the upgraded J-10. I think CAC is experimenting with domestic PESA radar on J-10 right now. Supposedly, the the heavily modified stealthy version of J-10 is getting AESA radar, but I don't see that joining service until at least 2008.

            As for the engine part, I think the Russians offered AL-31FN-M1 due to the success of WS-10A. At the moment, the production rate of WS-10A is quite low, so you might see another 100 order of AL-31FN by China, but WS-10A is definitely the way of future for J-10.

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            • #7
              Perhaps a threat to western aircraft by aircrafts like the J-10 is unlikely, but only without Russian assistance.

              I'm pretty sure an Indo-Russian or Russo-Chinese joint effort to produce fifth generation fighters could superceed an Anglo-American joint venture.

              But China should not win.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Captain Drunk
                Perhaps a threat to western aircraft by aircrafts like the J-10 is unlikely, but only without Russian assistance.

                I'm pretty sure an Indo-Russian or Russo-Chinese joint effort to produce fifth generation fighters could superceed an Anglo-American joint venture.

                But China should not win.
                Highly unlikely that an Indo-Russian or a Russo-Chinese joint effort for a fifth-generaton fighter will surpass anything a Anglo-American joint effort could produce. I know they aren't going to have anything that can match the F-22 in capability.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tphuang
                  The part about the radar is just Russian propoganda. Think about this, Russians have been bidding for radar contracts on Chinese planes for a while, but they've struck out pretty much everytime. Currently, J-10 is using Chinese radar + avionics and I don't see that changing with the upgraded J-10. I think CAC is experimenting with domestic PESA radar on J-10 right now.
                  I could imagine that they currently use the russian radar, while they contemporaneous try to impel the development of their own radar based on the russian radar which they trie to copy in some way. In a similar way they act with the engines. The russian engine they have puts all pressure off of the development of their WP-15/WS-10A which will maybe get in service one day.

                  Originally posted by tphuang
                  Supposedly, the the heavily modified stealthy version of J-10 is getting AESA radar, but I don't see that joining service until at least 2008.
                  2008 in my opinion is a too optimistic date. I've also heard that the israeli ELTA EL/M2035 and the Italian Grifo where offered to them.

                  Originally posted by tphuang
                  As for the engine part, I think the Russians offered AL-31FN-M1 due to the success of WS-10A. At the moment, the production rate of WS-10A is quite low, so you might see another 100 order of AL-31FN by China, but WS-10A is definitely the way of future for J-10.
                  That doesn't make a big difference considering that WS-10A only seems to be a AL-31FN copied by the Chinese.
                  >Facit Omnia Voluntas<

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JG73
                    I could imagine that they currently use the russian radar, while they contemporaneous try to impel the development of their own radar based on the russian radar which they trie to copy in some way. In a similar way they act with the engines. The russian engine they have puts all pressure off of the development of their WP-15/WS-10A which will maybe get in service one day.
                    Nope, none of the indigenous fighters are using russian radars. I think the j-10's radar probably got more help from the Israelis. Let's just say the Russians do not get to see the latest Chinese radars, that's why they have this continuous belief that China will be purchasing future radars from them.
                    2008 in my opinion is a too optimistic date. I've also heard that the israeli ELTA EL/M2035 and the Italian Grifo where offered to them.
                    That was ages ago. You will be surprised at how fast the Chinese radar industry has advanced.
                    That doesn't make a big difference considering that WS-10A only seems to be a AL-31FN copied by the Chinese.
                    That's totally bogus. WS-10A is based on CFM-56. It got some help from AL-31FN. If you look at the specs of WS-10A, it was actually intended to achieve the level of F-110-GE-129.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tphuang
                      ....That's totally bogus. WS-10A is based on CFM-56. It got some help from AL-31FN. If you look at the specs of WS-10A, it was actually intended to achieve the level of F-110-GE-129.
                      Oh, come on.....you're not serious are you? The CFM-56 series was designed for commercial jetliners, Boeings, Airbus, KC-135, etc. They are 50% larger in diameter and 1/2 the length of the AL_31 series. IOW, they were meant to hang from a pylon, not fit inside a fuselage.

                      The WS-10 was tested in J-11's with an AL-31 for backup- one in each engine bay. How did China's engineers pull off this little miracle if the WS-10 is a copy of the CFM-56?

                      Look at it from a weight and balance perspective, and it should be obvious....
                      "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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                      • #12
                        You're right. I've now read a bit more and must admit that my sources seem to be a bit old.
                        It's a very interesting theme where I still have to learn a lot more about. Good that there are other ambitioned aircrafts in the world than the few American, European and Russian ones. :)

                        @tphuang
                        Are you from China?
                        >Facit Omnia Voluntas<

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tphuang
                          The part about the radar is just Russian propoganda. Think about this, Russians have been bidding for radar contracts on Chinese planes for a while, but they've struck out pretty much everytime. Currently, J-10 is using Chinese radar + avionics and I don't see that changing with the upgraded J-10. I think CAC is experimenting with domestic PESA radar on J-10 right now. Supposedly, the the heavily modified stealthy version of J-10 is getting AESA radar, but I don't see that joining service until at least 2008.

                          As for the engine part, I think the Russians offered AL-31FN-M1 due to the success of WS-10A. At the moment, the production rate of WS-10A is quite low, so you might see another 100 order of AL-31FN by China, but WS-10A is definitely the way of future for J-10.
                          I know for sure that RUSSIAN COMPANIES ARE PROHIBITED to sell any advanced Radar/avionic/electronic equipement.... unless having a special permission from Security Counsil....... That is WHY Su-30MKK is less capable than Su-30MKI.... Russia wants to slow down advancement of its friend/adversary CHINESE DRAGON. For example a radar which Indians have in Su-30MKI is WAS NO APPROVED for sale to China.

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                          • #14
                            I agree Garry. AFAIK, the radar set in the J-10 is a Chinese copy of the APG-66.
                            "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by highsea
                              Oh, come on.....you're not serious are you? The CFM-56 series was designed for commercial jetliners, Boeings, Airbus, KC-135, etc. They are 50% larger in diameter and 1/2 the length of the AL_31 series. IOW, they were meant to hang from a pylon, not fit inside a fuselage.

                              The WS-10 was tested in J-11's with an AL-31 for backup- one in each engine bay. How did China's engineers pull off this little miracle if the WS-10 is a copy of the CFM-56?

                              Look at it from a weight and balance perspective, and it should be obvious....
                              There is a size difference between WS-10A and AL-31F. WS-10A's core is based on CFM-56's core. It probably doesn't help, but I have a scanned photo of a Chinese article on WS-10A's origin. Someone who can read Chinese can probably verify what I'm saying. CFM-56's core is based on GE F101's core. http://www.cfm56.com/excel/page06.html
                              F110's core is based on F101's core http://www.deagel.com/pandora/f110-g...e00004004.aspx.

                              That's why WS-10A is probably closer to American engines than AL-31FN.

                              I'm actually Chinese Canadian.
                              Attached Files

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