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  • #31
    Originally posted by indianguy4u
    ...What is interesting is that there isnt even one western or russian source for partial & independent look into the bird.
    It may be interesting, but it's not at all surprising. The Chinese are well known for switching tail numbers and moving their AC around so that the real numbers are hard to determine. They won't publish specs on anything remotely new.

    Remember the DF-31 balloons?
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    • #32
      I highly doubt that this thing will hold, i don't remember one instance (well i do remember some but they are not significant) where China developed anything good on its own without either buying or "borrowing" the technology either from Russia, the yanks, the Brits or the Frenches.


      Путин: Надо отделить мух от мяса.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Rusky
        I highly doubt that this thing will hold, i don't remember one instance (well i do remember some but they are not significant) where China developed anything good on its own without either buying or "borrowing" the technology either from Russia, the yanks, the Brits or the Frenches.
        5.8mm Type-95 Assualt Rifle.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by highsea
          Remember the DF-31 balloons?
          I'm kinda embarrassed about that. I've bought into it.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by indianguy4u
            It developed by Taiwan, claimed to be as good as f16 c/d.
            It's supposed to be in the same class but you won't find anyone on TW claiming they're just as good.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by tphuang
              No, in general, the Russians barely break even on some of the Indian contracts (probably because of the relationship between the Russians and Indians). On the other hand, the contracts between Russians/Chinese are quite profitable. Just look at the 956EM and Talwar project. It cost China 1.4 billion to get 2 956EM and cost India 1 billion to get 3 Talwar. You can easily argue that the 3 Talwar would bring better combat capability than the 2 956EM.
              Here I can argue with you. Irkut is doing good profit on its Indian contracts. I know it... I cover it. This profits are audited by KPMG - I tend to trust them. This year they are going to have profit of around $100mln while their MCAP is around $825mln - almost all this profit is on Indian contract.
              http://irkut.com/en/for_investors/finance/

              I can not commend on Talwar projects.... I have very vague understanding of ships and their weaponry. In general Russians ALWAYS make profit on their export deliveries.

              Originally posted by tphuang
              Just to clear things up a little bit, this kanwa article stated that the Russians lifted the export restriction on Pero radar as early as 2003 http://www.kanwa.com/free/2003/10/e1027a.htm
              In 2004, Zhuk-msf (the most advanced Russian radar, although not in service yet) was brought to the Zhuhai airshow.
              The Zhuk-msf was offered as a part of the deal together with MIG. Chinese tend to avoid MIGs as they believe they can build their own light combat aircraft..... So Zhuk-msf is a good way for MiGs to enter.

              Originally posted by tphuang
              As for the Irkut vs Knaapo argument, that's a misconception also. Irkut mainly builds flankers that have two pilots in tandem seating like ubk and such. Knaapo builds single seated fighters. Originally, mkk was also supposed to be built in IAPO, but China protested to the Russians to get it built at knaapo.
              http://www.china-defense.com/aviatio...lankers02.html
              "The PRC required that KnAAPO be the executor of the contract, instead of IAPO which the Sukhoi has assigned SU-30 two seater construction."
              As I said, the latest su-35 and su-27kub are offered to China. Those planes are definitely higher on the list than su-30mki. Su-35bm is considered to be the definitive flanker. su-27kub is built with side by side seating like su-34. Think about it this way, just because China cannot buy planes from other countries, that does not mean it will import them from Russia. Clearly, China has refused to purchase more flankers of the mkk series from Russia, so Russia is forced to ante up more.
              The two seaters were the more expensive versions.... in SU UBK version was made to coordinate normal Su-27 one seaters in the fight. In addition to that MKK did not have some of the things like - Phased Array Radar..... 3D TWC, Cannards.... reconfigured frame.... cockpit upgrades.

              There are different explantions why... one is that Russian Supreme counsil wants to prevent use of these against Russia.... However some refute this argument telling that it is NOT POSSIBLE to fight with Russia on modern Flankers.... There are many Bugs which would prevent it.

              Clearly Russians want to sell more AC to China and they would be improving their offering as long as Embargo from Europe goes out.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by tphuang
                for su-35bm: better engine + better airframe + usaged of KS-172 + better radar + better payload + reduced RCS features
                There is a nice thread on afm on this http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=52019
                su-27kub: it being a naval version, using su-34 type of side by side seating and getting equipped with zhuk-msf.
                1. isnt the ks172 development going on under JV with india ??( i think i read some article stating that they are planning to.. ),if true then it would be very difficult to get this missile.
                2. about radar.. if i remember correctly MKI will have a new radar by 2007 end ( the newer ones that roll out). and irbis( AESA) by 2010) some 160 mn dollars have already been put in a jv(between india and rusisa ) for development for these new radars.
                3. i did read about indians planning to use composites more and more in MKI as the development goes ahead.... we cannot really rule out indians paying russians for some joint research in RCS reduction etc etc..
                Russia will show all features of SU35 even though its still under development .. as it has to sell it in the market... but all the upgrades that are scheduled in MKI will not come out .. and only be told to nations who are more interested in buying SU30's(like malaysia).. as indians will not like all the details of their plane going out so easily.. esp when they are investing a lot in jv's in its further improvement... and the IPR will further make sure that even russia respects this.
                and of course such a product will be offered to china only if either russians already have replacements for all indian parts( seems improbable.. as then they would have themselves built stuff like radar processor than indians being forced to put their own as replacements.. )

                the whole point is MKI today is getting orders for russia ( like MKM and now even algeria is interested in it). while SU35 is still in development..lets wait till SU35 gets an order from some country..( beating whats being offered in MKI at that time ). that would be a real check
                the su35 is right now nothing more than a tech demonstrator( like the previous SU35 / su37.. which paved way for MKI/MKK products).

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
                  5.8mm Type-95 Assualt Rifle.
                  Notice how i left myself some breathing space by saying that i do remember some. Anyways, i am still going to reserve the benefit of a doubt on this one.


                  Путин: Надо отделить мух от мяса.

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                  • #39
                    It is an improvement over both the 5.45 and the 5.56 - but not that much more of an improvement. You get better results using better powders in the 5.45 and the 5.56. Certainly not worth the expense of developing a brand new ammo and rifle chambered for it.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Garry
                      Here I can argue with you. Irkut is doing good profit on its Indian contracts. I know it... I cover it. This profits are audited by KPMG - I tend to trust them. This year they are going to have profit of around $100mln while their MCAP is around $825mln - almost all this profit is on Indian contract.
                      http://irkut.com/en/for_investors/finance/

                      I can not commend on Talwar projects.... I have very vague understanding of ships and their weaponry. In general Russians ALWAYS make profit on their export deliveries.
                      Interesting, I remember reading a Russian article on CDF a while back that the Russians make a lot more profits on Chinese contracts than Indian contracts.


                      The Zhuk-msf was offered as a part of the deal together with MIG. Chinese tend to avoid MIGs as they believe they can build their own light combat aircraft..... So Zhuk-msf is a good way for MiGs to enter.
                      sorry, but zhuk-mfe is the one on mig-29. the s in zhuk-msf stands for sukhoi

                      The two seaters were the more expensive versions.... in SU UBK version was made to coordinate normal Su-27 one seaters in the fight. In addition to that MKK did not have some of the things like - Phased Array Radar..... 3D TWC, Cannards.... reconfigured frame.... cockpit upgrades.

                      There are different explantions why... one is that Russian Supreme counsil wants to prevent use of these against Russia.... However some refute this argument telling that it is NOT POSSIBLE to fight with Russia on modern Flankers.... There are many Bugs which would prevent it.

                      Clearly Russians want to sell more AC to China and they would be improving their offering as long as Embargo from Europe goes out.
                      You have to remember that just because China cannot buy fighters from anyone else, that does not mean China will purchase Russian fighters. There hasn't been an order from flankers from China in 3 years. That's why better fighters are being offered now.

                      As for mkk, it has a lot of weaknesses, but it wasn't really bought for air superiority reasons. In pla, it's pretty much used as an attacker. You don't really need TVC and canards for that. Also, su-35 and su-30mkk are both produced by knaapo, so the airframe parts used on mk2 can actually be interchanged with the ones on su-35ub. As a result of this, the mk2 frame should be stronger than the mki frame. Making it more effective in the attacking role.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ajaybhutani
                        1. isnt the ks172 development going on under JV with india ??( i think i read some article stating that they are planning to.. ),if true then it would be very difficult to get this missile.
                        I remember reading an article that the Russians came to Chinese for this, because it wasn't getting enough funding from the Indians. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure KS-172 getting exported to China isn't going to be a huge problem. It was speculated by Richard Fisher that KS-172's most likely client is China.
                        2. about radar.. if i remember correctly MKI will have a new radar by 2007 end ( the newer ones that roll out). and irbis( AESA) by 2010) some 160 mn dollars have already been put in a jv(between india and rusisa ) for development for these new radars.
                        Irbis isn't AESA, it's still PESA. It is very likely that MKI will get AESA sometimes in the next decade. As of now, I would say zhuk-msf has better numbers than Irbis.
                        3. i did read about indians planning to use composites more and more in MKI as the development goes ahead.... we cannot really rule out indians paying russians for some joint research in RCS reduction etc etc..
                        Russia will show all features of SU35 even though its still under development .. as it has to sell it in the market... but all the upgrades that are scheduled in MKI will not come out .. and only be told to nations who are more interested in buying SU30's(like malaysia).. as indians will not like all the details of their plane going out so easily.. esp when they are investing a lot in jv's in its further improvement... and the IPR will further make sure that even russia respects this.
                        and of course such a product will be offered to china only if either russians already have replacements for all indian parts( seems improbable.. as then they would have themselves built stuff like radar processor than indians being forced to put their own as replacements.. )
                        the whole point is MKI today is getting orders for russia ( like MKM and now even algeria is interested in it). while SU35 is still in development..lets wait till SU35 gets an order from some country..( beating whats being offered in MKI at that time ). that would be a real check
                        the su35 is right now nothing more than a tech demonstrator( like the previous SU35 / su37.. which paved way for MKI/MKK products).
                        Well, knaapo developed su-35 without India's help. I'm pretty sure avionics issue isn't going to be a problem. Again, Zhuk-msf is a different fire control radar than Bars. It will most likely feature more modes for ground and ships. I'm pretty sure the Russians have an avionics set that is different from mki. Remember, the RuAF wants to eqiup their air force with su-35bm. As for the export part, the Russians actually developed su-35 for the Russian air force. It has been offered to the Koreans and Brazilians already, but got turned down in both cases due to various reasons. So, will it get any export orders? I guess so, but I doubt China will be one of its customers.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Just wanted to comment: I thought Brazil was still doing the competition with Su-35? Did they pick already?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tphuang
                            I remember reading an article that the Russians came to Chinese for this, because it wasn't getting enough funding from the Indians. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure KS-172 getting exported to China isn't going to be a huge problem. It was speculated by Richard Fisher that KS-172's most likely client is China.
                            i wont go by anyones speculation but by what happens.. surely russians arent developing it on their own.. its gonna be either india or china.. and in either case the other party will not be allowed( just like brahmos wont go with the chineese. )
                            And frankly indians wont like paying for a big stuff like 5th gen plane if stuff like KS172 dont come in at cheaper development prices to them.. such tacts can be employed by either side.. after all its all who gets how much share.. lets see if russians will compromise on loosing the whole funding from india for 5th gen just for more funding in ks-172.. frankly lets see who plays his cards better.


                            Irbis isn't AESA, it's still PESA. It is very likely that MKI will get AESA sometimes in the next decade. As of now, I would say zhuk-msf has better numbers than Irbis.
                            some websites mention 2007 for a new PESA with better reciver modules and transmitter under development and irbis by 2010..
                            i would be surprized as the isbis JV as 160 mn $ for just a new PESA... and they will take 5-6 years for making a new PESA.. ( that too not better than the zhuk msf.. ) surely doesnt sound anything near the jvs between indians and russians( like brahmos, parts of MKI.. ) .. if theres anything already in the russian market better in capability then surely russians wont waste time in developing more with indians and instead sell them the same.. ;)


                            Well, knaapo developed su-35 without India's help. I'm pretty sure avionics issue isn't going to be a problem. Again, Zhuk-msf is a different fire control radar than Bars. It will most likely feature more modes for ground and ships.
                            the way i see more modes are just computation power.. and since the radar data processors are replaced.. and s/w rewritten.( by the indians) in case of bars.. it will take time to come up with newer modes.. more and more modes are planned with time.. frankly even the copter radar doesnt have any worthwhile modes in a2g right now.. but its all about just upgrading the s/w which means no added cost for upgrading already made radars.
                            I'm pretty sure the Russians have an avionics set that is different from mki. Remember, the RuAF wants to eqiup their air force with su-35bm. As for the export part, the Russians actually developed su-35 for the Russian air force. It has been offered to the Koreans and Brazilians already, but got turned down in both cases due to various reasons. So, will it get any export orders? I guess so, but I doubt China will be one of its customers.
                            they do have all the avionics needed .. but are they better. if yes then why did indians take all the pain in buying and integrating all french /israeli stuff which is much more expensive.. and make some parts on their own.. bear up all the cost of integration.. they will surely not buy israeli/french if russia could offer similar tech levels..
                            about su35.. the fact remains that MKi has been bought by 2 countries by now while su35 by none. i'll prefer to wait for no's before stating who good this paper plane is..

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                              Just wanted to comment: I thought Brazil was still doing the competition with Su-35? Did they pick already?
                              I think you can google this up. su-35 was considered to be the best fighter in running, but the Brazilians picked Mirage 2K due to political reasons. I'm not sure on this.

                              As for su-35's avionics been better than mki's? Hard to say. You have to keep in mind that the most important part of the avionics is still the radar and IRST. Other parts of avionics is hard to compare really. Overall, Zhuk-msf is probably the most potent Russian radar to this day. It has a 240 KM range vs 5 m^2 targets and tracks up to 30 fighters. I'm sure the ground capability is okay too, since Zhuk-ms's A2G capability is quite decent.

                              It's supposedly equipped on both su-35bm and su-27kub. If you look at the design su-27kub, it could be the best design out of all the flankers.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tphuang
                                I think you can google this up. su-35 was considered to be the best fighter in running, but the Brazilians picked Mirage 2K due to political reasons. I'm not sure on this.
                                seems improbable that they replaced a SU35 by a plane in a totally different class due to political reasons only*
                                When af's buy a fighter jet they have use cases in mind.. they have a fair idea of where they have to use them. if the war doctrine doesnt need these planes to fly ultra long range flights carrying heavy loads then its foolish to buy a SU35 and pay for its heavy operational cost,heavy cost of upgrading airfeilds to support the plane for all its life..on the other hand if they need a plane with long range, heavy payload etc.. they are the biggest fools to reject SU35 over a M2k.

                                As for su-35's avionics been better than mki's? Hard to say. You have to keep in mind that the most important part of the avionics is still the radar and IRST. Other parts of avionics is hard to compare really. Overall, Zhuk-msf is probably the most potent Russian radar to this day. It has a 240 KM range vs 5 m^2 targets and tracks up to 30 fighters. I'm sure the ground capability is okay too, since Zhuk-ms's A2G capability is quite decent.
                                can u please give some links for it .. ;)

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