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  • #91
    Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
    Yeah of I heard about those places. MiG Alley was a nice place to get yourself MiGs down. :p
    So is B-29's and all other planes. Judging from mission objective - MiG's won.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by lurker
      So is B-29's and all other planes. Judging from mission objective - MiG's won.
      How? It was field day for American pilots in there F-86 Sabres.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
        How? It was field day for American pilots in there F-86 Sabres.
        MiG's were PVO fighters, they haven't tried to achieve air-superiority. Their task was to kill as many bombers (and other craft) as they can (in the selected region only - hence "Mig Alley). Read some veteran stories

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        • #94
          Originally posted by lurker
          MiG's were PVO fighters, they haven't tried to achieve air-superiority. Their task was to kill as many bombers (and other craft) as they can (in the selected region only - hence "Mig Alley). Read some veteran stories
          Actually, no they were also equipped to fight air-to-air combat. But they were no match for the F-86, and hence why we achieved a large kill ratio.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
            Actually, no they were also equipped to fight air-to-air combat. But they were no match for the F-86, and hence why we achieved a large kill ratio.
            Yeah, both sides clam huge kill ratio. And both sides say that other is lying.

            But results are the same - B-29's stopped flying bomb raids.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by lurker
              Yeah, both sides clam huge kill ratio. And both sides say that other is lying.

              But results are the same - B-29's stopped flying bomb raids.
              Honestly, I trust the American counts especially considering the history of the Soviet Union on "valid" claims.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                Honestly, I trust the American counts especially considering the history of the Soviet Union on "valid" claims.
                Lol. Of course, who else would you trust?

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                  Actually, no they were also equipped to fight air-to-air combat. But they were no match for the F-86, and hence why we achieved a large kill ratio.
                  Actually technologicall speaking Mig was more maneuvarable and had a bigger gun. Also the ratio of Russian to American pilots in the Mig vs F-86 air combat is 1 to 4 in favor of the Russians. Most of the Migs were flown by the Koreans though, and those weren't properly trained. Technologically the Mig is superior, and as was prooven by the Soviet pilots if used correctly F-86 is no match.

                  Either way, Russian aircraft are competetive with any US aircraft, especially lately since Russia has opened up and now enjoys the benefits of integrated equipment production.

                  "Russian components....American components...all made in Taiwan."

                  Either way plasma stealth is completely possible, that is also a prooven fact, amongst the latest articles i read we have finally figured out how to solve the problem with the radio transmission block then using the plasma shield. Either way, like it or not, Russian aircraft are some of the best birds outthere. SU-30MKI, SU-34, SU-37, Mig-29E are defenetly better then any American plane aside from say F-22. Its a race, you get ahead of us, we get ahead of you, its our turn next and once PAK-FA comes out you will be in the tight space again. Also don't trust the drawings of PAK-FA they are always different and never have a solid source. One thing we do know is that T-50 will use the Integral configuration (the circular thing) that alone will make it far more maneuvarable then F-22. Just so you know, yanks aren't better just because you want them to be.
                  Last edited by Rusky; 14 Jan 06,, 01:30.


                  Путин: Надо отделить мух от мяса.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Rusky
                    Actually technologicall speaking Mig was more maneuvarable and had a bigger gun. Also the ratio of Russian to American pilots in the Mig vs F-86 air combat is 1 to 4 in favor of the Russians. Most of the Migs were flown by the Koreans though, and those weren't properly trained. Technologically the Mig is superior, and as was prooven by the Soviet pilots if used correctly F-86 is no match.

                    Either way, Russian aircraft are competetive with any US aircraft, especially lately since Russia has opened up and now enjoys the benefits of integrated equipment production.

                    "Russian components....American components...all made in Taiwan."

                    Either way plasma stealth is completely possible, that is also a prooven fact, amongst the latest articles i read we have finally figured out how to solve the problem with the radio transmission block then using the plasma shield. Either way, like it or not, Russian aircraft are some of the best birds outthere. SU-30MKI, SU-34, SU-37, Mig-29E are defenetly better then any American plane aside from say F-22. Its a race, you get ahead of us, we get ahead of you, its our turn next and once PAK-FA comes out you will be in the tight space again. Also don't trust the drawings of PAK-FA they are always different and never have a solid source. One thing we do know is that T-50 will use the Integral configuration (the circular thing) that alone will make it far more maneuvarable then F-22. Just so you know, yanks aren't better just because you want them to be.
                    Honestly, you don't know much about anything. If you ask anyone, most respected people will tell you that the F-86 had a higher kill ratio against MiGs then the other way around. It isn't even questioned, hence why the F-86 is called the MiG-Killer?

                    There is a difference between theoratically and practically. Do you have any knowledge in physics? Well to keep it in laymans terms, a plasma shield can not be maintained over the airframe because of the airflow which continueoulsy disrupts the shield. Not possible to do unless your flying in space. Why don't you compare the F-15 with the Su-27? Those are both 4th generation aircrafts while all those you just listed are all 4.5 generation (derivatives). I bet you the F-15K is probably better than all those when it comes to BVR, no doubt about that because those aircrafts are no match for its avionics. As for manueverability, the F-15 ACTIVE could likely outmanuever them, if it was turned into a combat aircraft (or the F-15's adopted it). As for PAK-FA, please at least figure out what you are saying. The PAK-FA is intended to compete with the F-35 JSF, not the F-22. Also how can you say that when the PAK-FA doesn't even have stats? Just one little thing, is of little help, considering lots of concepts have failed more than succeeded. Also to be honest, manueverability is of little worth in air fight any more. Sorry but most fighting occurs in BVR. The PAK-FA will be dead before it can use its manueverability.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                      Honestly, you don't know much about anything. If you ask anyone, most respected people will tell you that the F-86 had a higher kill ratio against MiGs then the other way around. It isn't even questioned, hence why the F-86 is called the MiG-Killer?
                      It depends about what side are you talking about. For example from documents of the 64th fighter corps (commanded by WWII ace Air Marshall Ivan Kozhedub), declassified by Generalnyj Shtab in 1993 - there were 1,872 engagements, in which 64th FC claimed 1,106 aircraft, from which 650 were F-86. Corps lost at the same time 335 airplanes. United Air Army (Chineese and Korean) claimed 231 aircraft and lost 271.

                      One note to that - F-86 were not the single fighters used by "UN" side in that conflict. And that F-86 were rush out there just because nobody else were able to do the job.

                      What was the job? To protect the bombers. Did they succeeded? Not to my knowlegde.

                      US started using B-29's only at night, and then stopped completely. F-86 could not protect them.
                      Last edited by lurker; 14 Jan 06,, 03:03.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lurker
                        United Air Army (Chineese and Korean) claimed 231 aircraft and lost 271.
                        Majority of those claims belong to AAA units.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                          Honestly, you don't know much about anything. If you ask anyone, most respected people will tell you that the F-86 had a higher kill ratio against MiGs then the other way around. It isn't even questioned, hence why the F-86 is called the MiG-Killer?
                          A baby of american propaganda. Either way, facts speak for the Mig, Russian pilots flying Migs over Korea had higher kill ratios against the F-86s then the other way around, the rest if just you being ignorant.

                          There is a difference between theoratically and practically. Do you have any knowledge in physics? Well to keep it in laymans terms, a plasma shield can not be maintained over the airframe because of the airflow which continueoulsy disrupts the shield. Not possible to do unless your flying in space.
                          Right, dude, just use google, read up on it, not that difficult and when you won't have to make ridiculus comments like that. I had a very good article that discusses all the problems and ways to counter them, i am gonna try to find a link for you. Either way, if it didn't work, Russia wouldn't have working prototypes that it has shown to Jane's Weekly. They dropped the cloud idea ages ago.

                          Why don't you compare the F-15 with the Su-27? Those are both 4th generation aircrafts while all those you just listed are all 4.5 generation (derivatives).

                          Sure lets compare, in the physical engagement tests in India Su-27 won 49 out of 50 engagements with F-15, how is that for you?


                          I bet you the F-15K is probably better than all those when it comes to BVR, no doubt about that because those aircrafts are no match for its avionics.
                          Right, again, just your opinion, not factual information. The latest Russian aircraft have electronics just as capable as any in the west.


                          As for manueverability, the F-15 ACTIVE could likely outmanuever them, if it was turned into a combat aircraft (or the F-15's adopted it).
                          No, it would not, god, get your facts straight.


                          As for PAK-FA, please at least figure out what you are saying. The PAK-FA is intended to compete with the F-35 JSF, not the F-22. Also how can you say that when the PAK-FA doesn't even have stats?
                          PAK-FA is intended to be an aircraft with capabilities of F-22 and cost of JSF, thats what Sukhoi says, i don't know about your sources.

                          Just one little thing, is of little help, considering lots of concepts have failed more than succeeded. Also to be honest, manueverability is of little worth in air fight any more. Sorry but most fighting occurs in BVR. The PAK-FA will be dead before it can use its manueverability.
                          Right, 100% speculation, zero truth or logic. Way to go buddy.

                          Eh, no it would not, you are overexagurating the gap between Russian and American avionics today, in your head its huge, in reality its closing in pretty fast. Look at Mig-29E, look at SU-37, tell me how are American avionics any better? They aren't.
                          Last edited by Rusky; 14 Jan 06,, 03:49.


                          Путин: Надо отделить мух от мяса.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                            Honestly, you don't know much about anything. If you ask anyone, most respected people will tell you that the F-86 had a higher kill ratio against MiGs then the other way around. It isn't even questioned, hence why the F-86 is called the MiG-Killer?
                            F-86 was no Mig-Killer, all make belief. In fact the IAF Mig-21 'Sabre-Killer' made the skies in 1971, killing fields for PAF F-86s.

                            Comment


                            • All your stuff you just said gave me a great laugh. :)

                              Originally posted by Rusky
                              A baby of american propaganda. Either way, facts speak for the Mig, Russian pilots flying Migs over Korea had higher kill ratios against the F-86s then the other way around, the rest if just you being ignorant.
                              Like your Russian propangda? Ha, and what facts? Facts from China, North Korea, and Soviet Union? I keep my word on the US. Why don't you go ask someone that actually knows something other than blabbing your mouth on. Ask anyone if the F-86 had a bigger kill ratio than the MiG-15, and you'll get, "Yes"

                              Right, dude, just use google, read up on it, not that difficult and when you won't have to make ridiculus comments like that. I had a very good article that discusses all the problems and ways to counter them, i am gonna try to find a link for you.
                              Ah, you just showed how much knowledge you have. I do wish to ask you one thing, if that article you have is so correct, why haven't we seen an aircraft that displays this capability yet? Oh yeah, because its not plausible.

                              Sure lets compare, in the physical engagement tests in India Su-27 won 49 out of 50 engagements with F-15, how is that for you?
                              You could at least get your aircrafts right, though I didn't expect much from you. India operates Su-30MKIs not Su-27s. To you they might be the same, but they are not. Also those engagements, I believe if you looked at them, the F-15's were outnumbered, stripped of their AESA, didn't have AWACs suppport, and had to fight WVR. All these didn't apply to the Su-30MKI.

                              Right, again, just your opinion, not factual information. The latest Russian aircraft have electronics just as capable as any in the west.
                              Damn, you really live in a shell I guess. Have you seen the inside cockpit of a Su-37? It took them till the 1990s to get where America was 2 decades before.

                              No, it would not, god, get your facts straight.
                              Uh, it would. F-15 ACTIVE had very impressive capability, at least matching the Su-30MKI if not surpassing it (the F-22 already does that over the Su-30MKI).

                              PAK-FA is intended to be an aircraft with capabilities of F-22 and cost of JSF, thats what Sukhoi says, i don't know about your sources.
                              Another pointer of your lack of knowledge. Russia stated that it is suppose to compete against the F-35. Don't believe me? Go ask someone on the forum.

                              Right, 100% speculation, zero truth or logic. Way to go buddy.
                              If you honestly think that my statement about BVR being the dominate form of AtA, then you honestly are in acoma I guess. I doubt I need to explain further.

                              Eh, no it would not, you are overexagurating the gap between Russian and American avionics today, in your head its huge, in reality its closing in pretty fast. Look at Mig-29E, look at SU-37, tell me how are American avionics any better? They aren't.
                              Yep, I've seen the inside of a Su-37 and it isn't very advanced. It looks like the SR-71's which was developed during the 60s (maybe I can give you guys some credit and say the 70s compared to us).

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Captain Drunk
                                F-86 was no Mig-Killer, all make belief. In fact the IAF Mig-21 'Sabre-Killer' made the skies in 1971, killing fields for PAF F-86s.
                                Honestly, I don't know why I'm replying to you considering how you lack any real knowledge whatsoever, but whatever:

                                the IAF's pilots outmatched the F-86 for two reasons: better pilot training and the MiG-21 was a better plain considering that a comparable aircraft to the F-86 is the MiG-15 not the MiG-21. Get your facts right.

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