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  • #16
    Originally posted by Captain Drunk
    Either way, theres bound to be some secret, cold Stealth Russian plane out there already, we all know that.

    Like the moment a new American jet is stealing the hearts of everyone, suddenly it finds itself in the crosshairs of some new hotshot Mig
    Prove that there are cold stealth russian aircrafts flying right now. Also I wouldn't worry about anything from MiG, the Raptor will own whatever comes it way, I'll tell you that.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
      I wouldn't worry about anything from MiG, the Raptor will own whatever comes it way
      yeah, it will HAVE to, especially if U think in terms of raptor's price

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Injecteer
        yeah, it will HAVE to, especially if U think in terms of raptor's price
        The price is small compared to what it brings to the table AIR SUPERIORITY. and the price will only fall. :)
        Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dreadnought
          The price is small compared to what it brings to the table AIR SUPERIORITY. and the price will only fall. :)
          Close. The F-15 brought us Air Superiority. The name of the game with the F-22 is Air Dominance.

          Russia will not field a fighter close to the Raptor's capabilities for well over a decade. I dont care how much divine intervention takes place. They dont have the money for enough R&D to make a real prototype. All they can do is take bits and pieces of technology and modify other planes. They cant put it all together with a genuine low-observable airframe, because they cant build one. And there's no way they'll be able to do it without everyone and their dog knowing about it. It'll be on posters and in movies and video games long before its in the Russian Air Force.

          And there's no way in hell Korea or anybody else is going to get them without us knowing. That idea is laughable.

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          • #20
            Close. The F-15 brought us Air Superiority. The name of the game with the F-22 is Air Dominance.


            Air Dominance=Air Superiority
            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Captain Drunk
              But the Rolls-Royce engined Mig-15 hotrod beat the Rolls-Royce engined F-86 hotrod :)

              Right now the Sovs are wooing India for financial and technical support for their Stealth projects and they'll have it, perhaps the IAF needs stealths as much as them. I'm pretty sure myself Indian Engineers will excel in stealth fields in the future....
              Rumors on some of the mil boards on the net are that the Russians have ditched plasma stealth completely and are going with a more conventional stealth design for the PAK FA. This is basiclly what I've suspected for awhile as I never saw how they could make plasma stealth work reliably.

              Of course these are only rumors so only time will tell but this is definately where I'd be placing my bets.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Dreadnought

                Air Dominance=Air Superiority
                Dont say that at Tyndall...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by The_Burning_Kid
                  Prove that there are cold stealth russian aircrafts flying right now. Also I wouldn't worry about anything from MiG, the Raptor will own whatever comes it way, I'll tell you that.
                  I highly disagree. The Mig-1.44 "Raptor Killer" has demonstrated the MiG corporation's ability to design and build a fighter worthy of taking on the F-22. It's got almost everything that the Raptor has in terms of TVC and an internally held payload. The Mig-1.44 has greater range, a greater payload, and greater manuverability than the F-22 because it does not have a stealth airframe, and thusly, the only two areas where the Raptor bests the Mig-1.44 is stealth and more advanced computer software.

                  We really don't know much about the Russian's next weapons. Vladimir Putin, the current president of Russia, did say that because their weapons sales have hit a record high from China and India they will be working on better weapons programs that will be kept completely secret. Russia is not poor, but actually very rich, because weapons are the backbone of their economy and they are making better weapons to improve their economy. So far, we really don't know what Russia has nor what they have sold. The Russians don't announce all their weapons sales to their customers publicly and neither do the customers. For all we know, the Russians could have mass produced some "new-hot-MiG/Flanker" and already sold China hundreds of them. China never has told the U.S. nor announced publicly the truth about its military capability and neither has Russia. I'm not saying that we sould be terrified or something, but what I am saying is that whatever information about military capability that China and Russia hand to the media is most likely not the truth. They both have a history of communism after all.
                  Last edited by Insomniac; 06 Jan 06,, 05:13.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Insomniac
                    I highly disagree. The Mig-1.44 "Raptor Killer" has demonstrated the MiG corporation's ability to design and build a fighter worthy of taking on the F-22. It's got almost everything that the Raptor has in terms of TVC and an internally held payload. The Mig-1.44 has greater range, a greater payload, and greater manuverability than the F-22 because it does not have a stealth airframe, and thusly, the only two areas where the Raptor bests the Mig-1.44 is stealth and more advanced computer software.
                    While I agree the Mig-1.44 is a good aircraft I don't think it can handle a Raptor 1:1. The Raptors stealth and avoinics advantage are a big deal when both aircraft are extremely lethal at BVR. And obviously the Russian defence department agrees given their developing the PAK FA now to compete with the JSF.

                    I think the Russians might be able to match the JSF in another generation but I don't think they'll catch up to the F-22 for at least a couple generations if they're finially going the stealth route now as well, especially given the U.S has a significant lead on them right now.

                    I wouldn't expect to see a prototype PAK FA flying before 2010, but I expect to see the JSF's coming off the production line by 2009. The Russians will likely catch up eventually if they keep pursing it but I don't think it will be this generation of fighters.

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                    • #25
                      Btw, "Raptor" characteristics quietly started to change.

                      Lokheed page does not say "Empty Weight" anymore, and USAF page shows increase from "31,670 lb" to "40,000 lb" "class". ;))

                      4 tonns plus... Bye-bye declared thrust-to-weight ratio.
                      Last edited by lurker; 06 Jan 06,, 08:40.

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                      • #26
                        [/quote]While I agree the Mig-1.44 is a good aircraft I don't think it can handle a Raptor 1:1[quote]

                        errrr... none of the modern era american fighters have been designed to fight a 1:1 battle. They usually rely on either long range weapons, stealth or speed. American fighters are unlikely to go out there without AWACS support or engage in a non-BVR arena.
                        Even today mig-29 in a hands of trained pilots would come of better in a knife-fight with f-16s/f-15s/fa-18s. The russians have always built aircrafts that have been more manoueverable, the americans have gone the other way.

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                        • #27
                          Theres no reason to knock russian tech. Even american cos. dont. LM actually bought out the VTOL tech used in the JSF programme from the russians,

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jimmy
                            Dont say that at Tyndall...
                            Are they not the very same if the opposing country cannot get their planes off the ground?
                            Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Insomniac
                              I highly disagree. The Mig-1.44 "Raptor Killer" has demonstrated the MiG corporation's ability to design and build a fighter worthy of taking on the F-22. It's got almost everything that the Raptor has in terms of TVC and an internally held payload. The Mig-1.44 has greater range, a greater payload, and greater manuverability than the F-22 because it does not have a stealth airframe, and thusly, the only two areas where the Raptor bests the Mig-1.44 is stealth and more advanced computer software.

                              We really don't know much about the Russian's next weapons. Vladimir Putin, the current president of Russia, did say that because their weapons sales have hit a record high from China and India they will be working on better weapons programs that will be kept completely secret. Russia is not poor, but actually very rich, because weapons are the backbone of their economy and they are making better weapons to improve their economy. So far, we really don't know what Russia has nor what they have sold. The Russians don't announce all their weapons sales to their customers publicly and neither do the customers. For all we know, the Russians could have mass produced some "new-hot-MiG/Flanker" and already sold China hundreds of them. China never has told the U.S. nor announced publicly the truth about its military capability and neither has Russia. I'm not saying that we sould be terrified or something, but what I am saying is that whatever information about military capability that China and Russia hand to the media is most likely not the truth. They both have a history of communism after all.

                              The very same can be said for the U.S. beyond a doubt as far as not releasing what they dont want you to know. ;)
                              Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Dreadnought
                                Are they not the very same if the opposing country cannot get their planes off the ground?
                                Air Superiority isnt the end-all. Technically air supremacy is. Superiority implies that we can take and own a section of airspace whenever we want. Supremacy means we inherently own it already.

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