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Merkava vs Abrams

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    The slave start death was preventable, same with the helo crash, tanker/wrecker crash and dump truck crash. But the drowned Abrams driver may just be part of the profession. If no ones shooting drive unbuttoned for better visibility and safety. If the ground gave way its an actual accident. I buried the front half of a hummer outside the bird baths at Hood, was sitting still and all of a sudden plop down she went in a bog underneath what looked like hard pack. The NTC roll over was almost common place. Poorly working NVG's bad roads, tactical movement, vehicles with high centers of gravity on bad roads... Some of the NVG's we got issued at NTC were absolute junk, if the moon was out even a little bit you could see far better without them.

    Well a little more complicated....

    The aircraft crash occurred at night while flying in different directions on opposite sides of a paved road. The AH-1F had an engine failure which caused it to swerve across road and hit the Chinook.


    The tanker crash lead to an investigation which created a MWO to go Army wide and post to PS Magazine.

    The 5 ton dump crash occurred on a rainy night when the truck, found to be driving at a safe speed, hit a Seth of
    Us on the road caused not by tactical units but a Georgia State Game Warden checking access points and dragging mud onto the road. Kind of a shit happens deal.

    We were a very risky Army in the 1980s. We trained our asses of with technogy which was not quite there yet....we became a better Army but it cost us blood and treasure.
    Last edited by Albany Rifles; 14 Aug 12,, 00:24.

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by astralis View Post
    AR,

    and so much of that rests upon the leadership of the unit in question. damn.
    The slave start death was preventable, same with the helo crash, tanker/wrecker crash and dump truck crash. But the drowned Abrams driver may just be part of the profession. If no ones shooting drive unbuttoned for better visibility and safety. If the ground gave way its an actual accident. I buried the front half of a hummer outside the bird baths at Hood, was sitting still and all of a sudden plop down she went in a bog underneath what looked like hard pack. The NTC roll over was almost common place. Poorly working NVG's bad roads, tactical movement, vehicles with high centers of gravity on bad roads... Some of the NVG's we got issued at NTC were absolute junk, if the moon was out even a little bit you could see far better without them.

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  • astralis
    replied
    AR,

    and so much of that rests upon the leadership of the unit in question. damn.

    Leave a comment:


  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Sadly, those of us in the Profession of Arms make our living in very dangerous environments.

    Saw a man cut in half jump starting a tank by having tanks nose to nose and not side to side.

    In one week in FT Stewart in summer of 1986 we saw an engineer 5 ton dump truck loaded with troops roll over into a swamp and kill 12; a 5,000 gallon tanker crash into a wrecker killing the wrecker crew; an AH-1 fly right into the front of a CH-47 loaded with troops killing all 23 on both aircraft and 5 on the ground; an M1 driver drowned when his tank fell into a swamp and 6 people were killed in a rollover accident from one of our units at NTC that same week.

    The CG was relieved about a month later...we lost over 100 people in six months.

    4 years later the 24th ID lost fewer soldiers in the 8 months of Desert Shield/Storm than home station.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
    The impulse from a 20k nuke is many orders of magnitude greater than a WWII "Earthquake" bomb. It is likely that Israeli nukes are at least 40kt, and not unlikely that some are in the 60-80k range. No valid comparison is possible with a 10,000# chemical explosive WWII bomb, unless the nuke misses the target by a substantial distance - well beyond the normal CEP of modern weapons.
    Or they could just as well be duds. Thus far, we had 3 recent nuclear powers who had confidence in their arsenals before testings. Thus far, we had 4 sets of duds (twice for North Korea).

    It would be prudent for Egypt not to assume that Israel has duds.

    It would be also prudent for Israel to assume she does.
    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 13 Aug 12,, 14:11.

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  • Chunder
    replied
    Originally posted by S2 View Post
    "...if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage."

    Maybe. Hopefully the T.C. feels very real fear and imparts that upon his crew effectively. Confidence in your equipment is one thing. Dangerous arrogance regarding potential threats is altogether different.
    Yeah - but having a few guys work under me who cannot for the life of them make up their own minds and constantly impart fear to the point of procrastination - that is what the TC is there to do. Not them.

    Damn sir - it is infuriating at times.

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  • bigross86
    replied
    We had a dude that just slipped and fell off his tank, dislocating his shoulder. We also had a dude that had his M16 sliced off at connection between the butt and the upper part of the body, and another guy that managed to slice about 4cm off the barrel of our coax FN MaG. Like a hot knife through butter, neat as you please.

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by S2 View Post
    "...don't know about the merkava or artillery but the Patton and the Abrams were both the most dangerous things to us and the one thing we were constantly on guard for..."

    Correct. Everytime we headed downrange there was real potential for disaster. I've seen an M548 cargo carrier destroyed by a low-order detonation while in convoy from the ASP. Killed the driver and scattered the remaining projos on board. I've seen a Lance battery burned out by a range fire that reached the battery position before they could displace. No fire guards posted. Seen a troop crushed by two 5t trucks backing end-to-end with him in the middle.

    I watched a XVIII Airborne Corps TA Battery make a silk smooth jump into Ft. Sill in late February, 1982 and one month later read of six dead and 150+ injured in a jump at NTC.

    Personally, I never climbed in a chopper without wondering if I'd land again alive.

    All that without ever seeing a shot fired in anger while in uniform.
    Yup, think most of us have those stories, specially NTC that place eats people. We had two MCI's when I did rotations there. One was a rolled over 5 ton loaded with troops and another was (IIRC) a California Air National Guard jet (like a lear jet) that was doing some sort of C3 work that went down. Plus a bunch of smaller mishaps. A year or so before my first rotation was the Colorado Wadi disaster when a scout platoon went over the cliff. There is live ordnance all over the place, even outside the live fire ranges there are (were) piles of unused hoffman devices.

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  • S2
    replied
    "...don't know about the merkava or artillery but the Patton and the Abrams were both the most dangerous things to us and the one thing we were constantly on guard for..."

    Correct. Everytime we headed downrange there was real potential for disaster. I've seen an M548 cargo carrier destroyed by a low-order detonation while in convoy from the ASP. Killed the driver and scattered the remaining projos on board. I've seen a Lance battery burned out by a range fire that reached the battery position before they could displace. No fire guards posted. Seen a troop crushed by two 5t trucks backing end-to-end with him in the middle.

    I watched a XVIII Airborne Corps TA Battery make a silk smooth jump into Ft. Sill in late February, 1982 and one month later read of six dead and 150+ injured in a jump at NTC.

    Personally, I never climbed in a chopper without wondering if I'd land again alive.

    All that without ever seeing a shot fired in anger while in uniform.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by S2 View Post
    "...if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage."

    Maybe. Hopefully the T.C. feels very real fear and imparts that upon his crew effectively. Confidence in your equipment is one thing. Dangerous arrogance regarding potential threats is altogether different.
    Hard to feel fear in a tank though, don't know about the merkava or artillery but the Patton and the Abrams were both the most dangerous things to us and the one thing we were constantly on guard for. With the caveat that I never saw combat and was not a TC or gunner, we trained for it. But every time we trained the risk of death or crippling injury was real and most likely to be the result of your own tank getting you. Halon going off, slips/falls, getting run over, getting caught between the turret and hull, exhaust stream, EL uncouple, chemical spills, accidents and roll overs, breach levers....

    So much going on, so much to be aware of, so much riding on doing it right, and such a fast pace that there was not really time to be afraid.

    I loved driving, loading was boring, gunnery for the gunner was cool but infrequent, got to drive every time the tank went to the field. Crossing wire or a creek, moving through lanes, backing up and taking directions blind, its a lot more technical than people think.

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  • USSWisconsin
    replied
    Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
    Concrete gravity dams are also designed to deal with earthquakes. The kind of nukes posed by Israel would barely qualify as a low level earthquake. No, the hydraulic shock would be handled by the dam. At the very most, it would cause a breach but something that is controllable and manageable. This dam is not like the dam that was bombed by Britain during WWII.
    The impulse from a 20k nuke is many orders of magnitude greater than a WWII "Earthquake" bomb. It is likely that Israeli nukes are at least 40kt, and not unlikely that some are in the 60-80k range. No valid comparison is possible with a 10,000# chemical explosive WWII bomb, unless the nuke misses the target by a substantial distance - well beyond the normal CEP of modern weapons.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 12 Aug 12,, 21:39.

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  • bigross86
    replied
    I don't know about the rest of my crew-members, but I was well aware of the tank's capabilities, knew its weaknesses and advantages, and knew when to be afraid and when I could feel confident.

    There are two reasons for this: The first reason is that if anything happens to the TC, as gunner I had to take his position and lead the crew. There are two reasons for that as well, the first being that as a gunner I probably am most aware of battlefield positioning and enemy location, and secondly, the TC also has a gunner position. Being the only one trained to fire properly means it makes sense for me to advance to TC position and keep shooting effectively.

    The second reason I knew so much about the tank is because I'm a bit of a geek, especially when it comes to military stuff. I honestly tried to learn everything I could about all four positions in the tank without actually going to TC course, and I knew stuff that other gunners didn't know, including how to run emergency systems I wasn't allowed to touch and how to recalibrate the entire FCS. In a pinch I could load or drive, but one of my earlier TC's saw how I kept studying more and gave me lots of training in the TC position. I suspect it was also because he enjoyed being "injured" and laying in back doing nothing

    All in all, I can say that it worked out, because it was this professionalism that got me chosen both as the gunner in the company XO's tank (CO preferred a TC as a gunner), and also as the gunner for the Brigade CO's tank, effectively validating me as the best tank gunner in a brigade of 40 tanks and ~2,500 people. Not too useful in the real world, but still something I'm kinda proud of

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  • S2
    replied
    Chunder Reply

    "...if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage."

    Maybe. Hopefully the T.C. feels very real fear and imparts that upon his crew effectively. Confidence in your equipment is one thing. Dangerous arrogance regarding potential threats is altogether different.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chunder
    replied
    What did others around you feel about it?

    Reason I ask - is that if you feel no fear in the thing - that's a pretty powerful advantage.

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  • bigross86
    replied
    I wasn't a driver, I was a tank gunner. That being said, I enjoyed every single damned second in it. There are very few things as fun as being in a behemoth that large and that powerful knowing the awesome capabilities of death and destruction that are at your control.

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