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  • #31
    Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Who else makes this stuff?
    Well there's plenty of non-US European-made ordnance, PGM's, cruise missiles etc.
    MBDA has a pretty large portfolio for example.

    And according to this article,

    While European Air Forces are relying heavily on U.S. produced laser guided bombs mostly produced by Raytheon, these models are uniquely designed for specific European built platforms and are not readily available to replenish British or French stocks from U.S. munitions reserves.

    Although the United States has significant stockpiles, its munitions do not fit on the British- and French-made planes that have flown the bulk of the missions. The French Air Force uses the GBU-12, (Paveway II) GBU-22 (Paveway III) and GBU-49 Enhanced Laser Guided Bomb, (adding a GPS/INS to the basic GBU-12 kit. The French Rafale fighters used by the Air Force and Navy also carry the AASM stand-off guided munition.

    The British Royal Air Force uses Paveway II and Paveway III kits with 1,000 pound warheads, carried by Tornado GR4 strike fighters. The Paveway IV loaded with 500 pound (225 kg) warheads is also carried by the Tornado and was recently cleared for the Typhoon, a step soon followed by similar clearance of the European equivalent – EGBU-16 for the German, Italian and Spanish versions of Typhoon. The European choice of enhanced LGB derive from its inherent all-weather capability, considered better adaptable to the European climate. EGBU-16 employs the 1,000 pound bomb shell converted into a guided weapon.
    Last edited by TopHatter; 04 Aug 12,, 17:18.
    “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
    ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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    • #32
      TH,

      that article is incomplete.

      it was the european air forces that had platforms which were interoperable with the US (read: had F-16s) that conducted the bulk of the early strikes.

      the french and british started their bombing later...and when they, too, ran out, made modifications to their aircraft so they could get US resupply.

      all in all, the libya campaign showed just how woefully inadequate NATO was when the US did not "take lead" (it was merely #2 in terms of actual strikes, behind france). in the end, the US picked up resupply, provided command and control, provided intelligence, organization, and de-confliction.
      Last edited by astralis; 04 Aug 12,, 21:24.
      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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      • #33
        What ordnance does Israel not make/hold significant reserves of?
        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

        Leibniz

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        • #34
          Could the Israelis not just blow up the Aswan High Dam and be done with it? You can have the most kick ass tanks in the world and a US trained officer corps and that's all fine and well but if your whole country's population gets washed into the Med....

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          • #35
            Originally posted by astralis View Post
            TH,

            that article is incomplete.

            all in all, the libya campaign showed just how woefully inadequate NATO was when the US did not "take lead" (it was merely #2 in terms of actual strikes, behind france). in the end, the US picked up resupply, provided command and control, provided intelligence, organization, and de-confliction.
            Ahh I see. The Colonel mentioned though that the resupply from the U.S. was slow, apparently due to lack of stocks?

            Originally posted by rickshaw92 View Post
            Could the Israelis not just blow up the Aswan High Dam and be done with it? You can have the most kick ass tanks in the world and a US trained officer corps and that's all fine and well but if your whole country's population gets washed into the Med....
            Only 2 scenarios where that is possible/useful, both of which virtually guarantee the destruction of Israel:

            1. A preemptive strike before the Egyptian Army leaves Egypt itself...causing Israel to become an international pariah worse than North Korea and Iran combined.

            2. The destruction of Israel is within sight...which means the Egyptian Army is in Israel itself or right outside the gates...meaning the destruction of Egypt affects their army in the immediate sense not at all...except to enrage them to the point of massacring anything breathing in Israel.
            “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
            ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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            • #36
              pari,

              What ordnance does Israel not make/hold significant reserves of?
              in general, PGMs. modern warfare uses these by the boatload; the US found exactly how much in 2003 and israel found this out in 2006.

              israel is better stocked today than she was back in 2006 but i have no doubt that if israel were to be engaged in a regional war, she would once again be dependent upon the US for resupply, particularly for the more complex PGMs such as bunker-busters.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • #37
                TH,

                The Colonel mentioned though that the resupply from the U.S. was slow, apparently due to lack of stocks?
                the issue was not lack of stocks but politics. as i mentioned earlier, the US had-- and has-- been telling its partner nations to build a smart bomb reserve. most nations tended to ignore this (didn't want to spend the cash) and figured if they REALLY needed it, they'd just grab the US stock.

                so when the european nations started to beg the US for resupply and more assistance over something that was supposed to be their responsibility, the US was not too pleased...nor was the US pleased over the feet-dragging about the payment for resupply.

                in an israel scenario the resupply would be faster...provided the US or NATO was not involved in a war. as the col mentioned, if NK invaded and all hell broke loose in the ME, well, tough cookies for israel. even the current US reserve would not be enough for a truly major war.

                of course given how the arabs are even more dependent on the US, frankly, i don't think israel is going to be in THAT deep.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ah Excellent! I love this kind of "family gossip"
                  “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                  ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Very hard to blow a dam. That dam has so much concrete that it would take several bombing runs to do it and that is something that Israel cannot do. Besides doing that will make Israel the most hated country and no Israelis would ever feel safe again until it is wiped off this earth. So, no it is a very bad strategic move.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                      Very hard to blow a dam. That dam has so much concrete that it would take several bombing runs to do it and that is something that Israel cannot do. Besides doing that will make Israel the most hated country and no Israelis would ever feel safe again until it is wiped off this earth. So, no it is a very bad strategic move.
                      Technically speaking dams are not that hard to bust, a big enough bomb behind the dam to create a water hammer and down she goes. Just as effectively as blowing the damn would be a strike on the hydroelectric plant there. Plunge the country into darkness and chaos and you're striking directly at the governments legitimacy.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                        Who else makes this stuff?
                        Also recall that the resupply of Israel by the US in 1973 was from war reserve stocks in Belgium and Germany.....something which doesn't exist anymore. Also recall that in 1973 it was mostly an air bridge.
                        “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                        Mark Twain

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                        • #42
                          And the Egyptians are going to just leave the dam unguarded?

                          They are damn hard to break.....and sorties going there aren't being used elsewhere.
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Technically speaking dams are not that hard to bust, a big enough bomb behind the dam to create a water hammer and down she goes.
                            Errr.... no. It depends on the kind of dam it is. From Wiki:

                            The Aswan High Dam is 3,830 metres long, 980 metres wide at the base, 40 metres wide at the crest and 111 metres tall. It contains 43 million cubic metres of material.
                            It is a concrete gravity dam. Very hard to put a dent into it.


                            Just as effectively as blowing the damn would be a strike on the hydroelectric plant there. Plunge the country into darkness and chaos and you're striking directly at the governments legitimacy.
                            The dam only produces 15% of Egypt's electricity. You should also know that by attacking a dam and attempting a large rate of civilian casualties is akin to launching a bio/chem attack and invites a nuke or disproportional response.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                              Errr.... no. It depends on the kind of dam it is. From Wiki:



                              It is a concrete gravity dam. Very hard to put a dent into it.
                              Which has nothing at all to do with my statement. The damn only has so much reserve strength holding back billions of tons of water. Create a big enough water hammer and you can exceed this reserve strength and the dam is doomed. For example, even a small nuke behind the dam is probably going to bust it.


                              The dam only produces 15% of Egypt's electricity.
                              Yup and that is enough seriously damage the grid. Egypt already has an energy shortage. Add in the likely drop in oil imports during a war and the entire grid is in danger of a complete collapse.

                              You should also know that by attacking a dam and attempting a large rate of civilian casualties is akin to launching a bio/chem attack and invites a nuke or disproportional response.
                              I'm not the one who advanced the idea, I merely responded to the question. However, if Israel was making that kind of move they are already facing annihilation so i don't think they would care. Its the threat that millions or tens of millions of Moslem mothers and children will be vaporized, drowned, radiologically poisoned and millions more crippled and disfigured that keeps Israel free from an attack using NBC weapons. Because lets be honest, if Saddam didn't think Israel had nukes the scuds fired at Israel would have had chemical warheads, or Syria would have launched an attack on major population centers if it was safe to do so. The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel. Iran targeting Dimona with waves of missiles (or Syrian CW) is.

                              Unlike any other nuclear power, only Israel is under a credible threat of total annihilation from non-nuclear countries. An Iranian missile strike that causes a Fukishima type nuclear emergency has a very real risk of rendering the Levant a wasteland. The realtive lack of rain, rocky/sandy substrate... its an almost ideal area for long term contamination.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by zraver View Post
                                Which has nothing at all to do with my statement. The damn only has so much reserve strength holding back billions of tons of water. Create a big enough water hammer and you can exceed this reserve strength and the dam is doomed. For example, even a small nuke behind the dam is probably going to bust it.
                                Not really. First you have to destroy the sluice gates that acts as a relief valve. If you can block the sluice gate, sure it can work. If you can't, it won't work.


                                Yup and that is enough seriously damage the grid. Egypt already has an energy shortage. Add in the likely drop in oil imports during a war and the entire grid is in danger of a complete collapse.
                                Errr.... no. All grids are designed to accommodate fluctuating power loads and demands. There are some days where some power plants are not producing and that could be 30% of the total power plants due to maintenance or cooling down periods due to overheat. Even there are some days where the dam are not producing any power because of lack of water and the grids have proven to be resilient in managing the decrease in power.

                                I'm not the one who advanced the idea, I merely responded to the question. However, if Israel was making that kind of move they are already facing annihilation so i don't think they would care. Its the threat that millions or tens of millions of Moslem mothers and children will be vaporized, drowned, radiologically poisoned and millions more crippled and disfigured that keeps Israel free from an attack using NBC weapons. Because lets be honest, if Saddam didn't think Israel had nukes the scuds fired at Israel would have had chemical warheads, or Syria would have launched an attack on major population centers if it was safe to do so. The Palestinians are not an existential threat to Israel. Iran targeting Dimona with waves of missiles (or Syrian CW) is.

                                Unlike any other nuclear power, only Israel is under a credible threat of total annihilation from non-nuclear countries. An Iranian missile strike that causes a Fukishima type nuclear emergency has a very real risk of rendering the Levant a wasteland. The realtive lack of rain, rocky/sandy substrate... its an almost ideal area for long term contamination.
                                I am talking about a situation where Israel creates a conflict where it inevitably leads to Israel resorting to its use of nukes, not a conflict that was not of Israel's doing. Those are two different things.

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