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$220,000 uparmored Humvee "inadequate" - solutions, workarounds?

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  • Originally posted by S2 View Post
    Sir, could you pass the catsup and tobasco sauce while you're up and about?
    Damned Americans! Always with the spices. Why I remember when a single shot of scotch will be all we need to make a gourmet.

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    • "Why I remember when a single shot of scotch will be all we need to make a gourmet."

      I've sworn off the demon for the time being. Upsets my digestion don't you know...
      "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
      "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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      • Hell has frozen over! A Gunner admitting to be inferior to an engineer!

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        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
          Damned Americans! Always with the spices. Why I remember when a single shot of scotch will be all we need to make a gourmet.
          How many "single shots" it take Sir to be recorded in history :Dancing-Banana:

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          Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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          • Originally posted by T_igger_cs_30 View Post
            How many "single shots" it take Sir to be recorded in history :Dancing-Banana:
            I don't know, RSM, but it would be damned nice to find out personally, don't you think, RSM?

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              I don't know, RSM, but it would be damned nice to find out personally, don't you think, RSM?
              "Cor not 'alf Sir"
              sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

              Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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              • Minefields are your problem Colonel Yu, not mine. :)

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                • So the trajectory of wheeled APC evaluation comes from recon units first and then motorized rifle units later? What was the Soviet rational in their Motor Rifle Division to have 2 wheeled APC regiments and one IFV regiment plus a regiment of tanks?
                  All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                  -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                  • Triple C Reply

                    Cost may have been one of the rationales. Fully equipping a motor rifle division with three regiments of BMPs may have been prohibitive from a production and maintenence/logistics perspective. Dunno though.

                    Utilization may have played a role too. The tank and BMP regiments may have been viewed as the offensive striking arm of the division with the role of the BTR regiments largely relegated to defensive and/or follow-on operations.
                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                    • Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                      So the trajectory of wheeled APC evaluation comes from recon units first and then motorized rifle units later? What was the Soviet rational in their Motor Rifle Division to have 2 wheeled APC regiments and one IFV regiment plus a regiment of tanks?
                      Cost most likely, plus some mission requirements. Although post Cold War many have said NATO had the Soviets all wrong and there was no danger of attack this is debatable. Soviet vehicle design and unit TOE was offensive in structure. The BMP and Soviet tanks (especially from the T-64 onwards) are assault vehicles that are almsot over specialized for effectiveness in other roles. The BMP for example was designed to fght on the nuclear battlefeild from on top of the objective. The later T series tanks have horrible elevation adn depression and are much hard to go effectively hull down in.

                      However, assault alone is not the whole of the offensive. If you look at the lessons of WWII on the Eastern Front the need for large numbers of infantry is clear. From June 41 to the end of the war, the battles in the East were a series of attempts to create encirclements. For that mission you need infantry that can keep reasonable close to the tanks. If Hitler had another couple of divisions of motorized infantry it is likley the Soviet Union would have fallen or taken a lot longer to fight back as the encirclements would have been tighter and the escapees fewer. The inability of the Germans to close the gap at Smolensk with the tired infantry lagging behind from Minsk-Balystok for example let 200,000 trained troops escape. Compare this to Kiev where almost all the Soviet forces were lost.

                      I think it could be argued that 2003 forced the US to learn this lesson. We did not have enough infantry to assult, control and patrol and it cost us. However before Bill jumps in and says the M113 could ahve solved that.... No it couldn't, not without more units which would ahve brought m2's with them so the 113's would have been surplus.

                      back to the narrative... The BTR let the Soviets carry the required infantry with them. The BTR's also provided area protection for penetrations. One of the lessons the Germans learned too late in WWII was never let the attackers get a bridgehead. The ability to rapidly push in infantry and set up a hasty defense by both the Americans and Russians doomed numerous German plans. APC's let both the attack and defender utilize mobility to respond to changing situations. The attacker magnifies his advantage of concentration of power and the defender lessens the defender's dilema of where to apply his power.

                      One place where wheeled platforms like the BTR or Stryker have an advantage over tracks is the infantry transport role. They have faster road speeds and better fuel mileage so allow better flexibility in supporting tracked units. They also excell at security ooperations, another lesson from WWII. The Germans and Russians both suffered from crippling partisan operations that siphoned off a lot of combat power. Wheeled platforms are better able to patrol the roads and by ways, and react fast enough to events to allow an effective responce.

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                      • Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        I think it could be argued that 2003 forced the US to learn this lesson. We did not have enough infantry to assult, control and patrol and it cost us. However before Bill jumps in and says the M113 could ahve solved that.... No it couldn't, not without more units which would ahve brought m2's with them so the 113's would have been surplus.
                        US forces didn't have those units (or their vehicles, and yes, M113s would have been perfectly fine for "mopping up" follow on operations) for three reasons.

                        One, Rumsfeld would not allow them for a variety of reasons.
                        Two, the plan Cobra II was overly ambitious.
                        Three, landing the 4th ID took far longer than anticipated.

                        But mostly it was one.

                        The Soviets used wheeled vehicles for reece in built up areas with good road networks, for airborne assaults, and for follow on "mop up" operations.

                        Increased road speed is only useful if there is a useable road infrastructure and the attack plans to use it. For instance, in the ODS left hook that advanced across hundreds of kilometers of desert, wheeled vehicles would have decidedly inferior mobility than tracked units. In that specific attack, M113A3's would be clearly superior to Strykers, with the Bradley even better still.
                        There were probably thousands of M113 variants involved in that left hook.
                        Last edited by Bill; 02 Mar 11,, 00:36.

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                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Damned Americans! Always with the spices.
                          Colonel,

                          Have you ever TRIED B Rations? Or T Rations? Or UGRs?

                          Trust us...Texas Pete or Tabasco are the only ways to survive field chow!
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

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                          • Of for pete's sakes! A dab of tabasco or a shot of scotch! Thus far, you americans are arguing for the tomato sauce!

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                            • Originally posted by USSWisconsin View Post
                              How about a 40mm grenade launcher MG, and a 7.62 MMG for lesser targets. (to arm the M113)
                              The US have purchased the Jackal from the UK, damn fine vehicle, an excellent replacement for the Hummer; 7.62mm GPMG, .50 and or 40mm Grenade Launcher.

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                              • Kernow - response

                                They have? I have heard nothing of this nor can I track anything down, how many did they purchase Kernow ?...............

                                I know it is a very versatile vehicle, generally liked but a couple of the negative points I have heard.... Open for crew vulnerable to sniper fire, and no V shaped hull ......... best suited to special ops teams is the opinion I have heard most

                                Jackal (vehicle) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                Jackal armoured vehicle - British Army Website

                                Jackal 1 and 2 (MWMIK) | Armoured Vehicles - Tanks, APC, IFV and much more!

                                Special Operations Vehicles - Supacat Jackal - SOV Candidate - Special Reconnaissance - Quick Reaction Vehicle - CASR Background - CSOR & JTF2 - Supacat MWMIK - Mobility Weapons Mounted Installation Kit - HMT 400 - Supacat 4x4 - Canadian Special Oper
                                sigpicFEAR NAUGHT

                                Should raw analytical data ever be passed to policy makers?

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