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Corps to deploy M1A1 tanks to Afghanistan

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  • Originally posted by zraver View Post
    There are already off the shell MTU power packs (Engine+Transmission) ready to go for the Abrams from the sale bid to Turkey. However conventional engines brign thier own issues. The Abrams turbine is deadly quiet compared to a conventuional engine. Not sure on throttle responce.
    Sounds like an opportunity for a trial deployment - perhaps a platoon of conventional engine Abrams could be sent to see how they work out. As far as power and throttle response, that probably wouldn't be a show stopper, if they want better fuel economy and lack of hot exhaust, it could be a useful trade off, I'm sure there would be some kind of performance hit, but acceleration and top speed may not be primary opperational concerns in this situation. Being able to stay on station longer with lower fuel consumption may be a big advantage in this situation. The quietness might not be a big deal either, since the insurgents would almost certainly be aware of armor operating in the area, whether they hear the engine or not. Of course these are just my idea's I don't have the experience that our tankers can draw on to make educated decisions about the best course.
    Last edited by USSWisconsin; 24 Jan 11,, 18:29.
    sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
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    • I have been very impressed with the huge strides in both diesel engine efficiency & power in the last decade or two; the latest MTU diesels are capable of putting out a reliable 1500 HP. When the M1 first came out back in the '80's, it had the first production tank engine in history capable of 1500 HP; now we've got diesel alternatives on the market that are just as powerful and, probably, more efficient. It would be very interesting to put an MTU MB 873 in an Abrams and see what happens.
      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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      • The log tail of any heavy unit is extensive and the fuel use high regardless. The question is how much higher. Much is made of the M-1's supposed weakness here but it remains a relative issue until closely explored against the alternatives. Secondly, the advantages of a turbine powerpack have to be weighed against the disadvantages and/or gains by a diesel. Third might be the cost associated with re-fitting the M-1 fleet with diesel coupled with the re-training and re-tooling of the maintenence tail.

        I don't have those answers but I'm sure those are just some of the macro questions.
        "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
        "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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        • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
          The log tail of any heavy unit is extensive and the fuel use high regardless. The question is how much higher. Much is made of the M-1's supposed weakness here but it remains a relative issue until closely explored against the alternatives. Secondly, the advantages of a turbine powerpack have to be weighed against the disadvantages and/or gains by a diesel. Third might be the cost associated with re-fitting the M-1 fleet with diesel coupled with the re-training and re-tooling of the maintenence tail.

          I don't have those answers but I'm sure those are just some of the macro questions.
          In a word, unaffordable.

          The depth and breadth of parts, tools, training and experience invested in the M1 fleet would make changing power train across the fleet is exhorbitant. The Army and the USMC have 25+ years invested and expect to use it for 25 more. The logistics infrastructure can handle the CL III requirements. While not perfect the current system works. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
            In a word, unaffordable.

            The depth and breadth of parts, tools, training and experience invested in the M1 fleet would make changing power train across the fleet is exhorbitant. The Army and the USMC have 25+ years invested and expect to use it for 25 more. The logistics infrastructure can handle the CL III requirements. While not perfect the current system works. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
            Unless a credible threat of a heavy ground war with US control of the air not assured develops I agree. However if we were facing the Soviets and they had the current Russian kit but in Soviet numbers I would dissagree. Our log heavy units depend on "relaitively" secure supply routes. If we were in a situation where those assets were under a credible air threat the change to a more efficient engine might well be the more affordable choice.

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            • Originally posted by zraver View Post
              Unless a credible threat of a heavy ground war with US control of the air not assured develops I agree. However if we were facing the Soviets and they had the current Russian kit but in Soviet numbers I would dissagree. Our log heavy units depend on "relaitively" secure supply routes. If we were in a situation where those assets were under a credible air threat the change to a more efficient engine might well be the more affordable choice.
              That assessment has been done. And the return on the investment is not worth the swap out.
              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
              Mark Twain

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              • "Perfect is the enemy of good enough."

                One of my favorite Kelly Johnson quotes.

                Having operated against M-1s in exercises, i can tell you that their very low noise footprint vs a diesel is a huge tactical advantage in many circumstances. I have seen M-1s sneak up within 100 meters of manned positions before being detected due to their low noise output. That is no fun at all for a defender.

                And honestly the cost to switch to diesel engines in the entire fleet would be hugely expensive. In this economy, in this budget, there is just no way in hell any one could ever justify such an expense.

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                • As AR said, it's probably unaffordable; and, besides, I know the US Gov't just signed a $1.5 billion contract with Honeywell for their TIGER (Total InteGrated Engine Revitalization) program for the AGT 1500 which should, hopefully, "significantly reduce operating costs while doubling the service life" of the AGT 1500.

                  We shall see . . . . . .
                  Last edited by Stitch; 24 Jan 11,, 21:38.
                  "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                  • The Merkava is not quiet, I'll give you that, but many cases I've seen "defenders" be surprised as well, since if more than one tank is actually running around it's very hard to hear what direction they're coming from, especially if they use terrain masking properly. You hear an engine, no doubt, but it's hard to pinpoint their exact location
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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                    • You can hear diesels from miles away sometimes, especially at night, or in the woods or a valley where there is an echo effect, but yeah, like you said, often it can be hard to figure out the bearing and range to them, especially if there are a lot of them operating from various distances and bearings.

                      However, with the M-1, they can just sneak right up and you hear nothing at all, until you hear.....nothing at all. (permanently). ;)

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                      • Originally posted by Stitch View Post
                        When the M1 first came out back in the '80's, it had the first production tank engine in history capable of 1500 HP
                        The first production tank engine with 1500 HP was the MTU MB 873. Originally designed for the MBT70 in 1967 (Ka-500 version, 1500 HP), bored up for the VT1-2 prototype in 1974 (Ra-500 version with 2175 HP design short-term power) and then finally used in the production Leopard 2 since 1979 (Ka-501 version governed at 1500 HP, 1800 HP ungoverned).

                        The USA had a pretty comparable engine for the MBT70 in 1967 in the Continental AVCR-1100 V12 at 1470 HP, though that was prototype only and didn't go any further.

                        Edit, PS: Largest diesel vehicle engine available from MTU at the moment is the MT 883 Ka-524, at 2740 HP. Designed for the USMC EFV.
                        Last edited by kato; 25 Jan 11,, 02:09.

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                        • Originally posted by kato View Post
                          The first production tank engine with 1500 HP was the MTU MB 873. Originally designed for the MBT70 in 1967 (Ka-500 version, 1500 HP), bored up for the VT1-2 prototype in 1974 (Ra-500 version with 2175 HP design short-term power) and then finally used in the production Leopard 2 since 1979 (Ka-501 version governed at 1500 HP, 1800 HP ungoverned).
                          I knew the Leopard II had a 1500 HP MTU (the MB 873), but I didn't realize it had come out so early. Thanks for the correction!
                          "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                          • Originally posted by kato View Post
                            5.7 mpg originally projected on the road (sometimes also stated at 6.2 mpg)
                            2.92 mpg actual mission performance with offroad components
                            See also the "Identifying Logistics Risk" section in the first link, it expands a bit on this in the third paragraph.

                            The 2.92 mpg mission value is pretty normal for an armoured 6x6 vehicle of its size, e.g. the 35-year-old German Fuchs of identical dimensions has a virtually identical design performance.
                            Those figures are low - my company averaged higher than that for offroad performance and closer to the 6mpg while in Iraq.
                            "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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                            • A modern gas turbine- or even an existing un-governed M1 turbine, would create far more than 1500hp in the same sized package.

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                              • Originally posted by Bill View Post
                                A modern gas turbine- or even an existing un-governed M1 turbine, would create far more than 1500hp in the same sized package.
                                But to make use of that power long term the transmission, final drives, drive sprocket and tracks would need to be seriously beefed up. The AGT 1500 produces somewhere near 2700lbs of torque. Adding 500shp might add 800-1000lbs and if the rest of the drive train can't take it there is going to be problems.

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