M1A2 vs Challenger 2 (intelligent debate)

[SenorPabloIII]

No-one has ever claimed the challenger is impenetrable. with a big enough charge you can penetrate anything.

Sorry, I couldn't find the right words, I agree with you and I know no one has ever claimed the challenger is impenetrable, I couldn't find the right words

[zraver]

Interesting. If this system is utilised, what role does the (former) loader serve on board the vehicle? Radio operator or lookout? I don't think the loader has periscopes (nor the suitable for such a role while under armour). Are you envisioning a remote controlled weapon station for the loader, say an MG or AGL?

Probalby the laoder would become a technology assistant to the commander. As technology burns off the fog of war, commanders risk being overwhelmed by to much information- information overload or blindness. A tank commander already has a lot of task he has to do. More so if he is a platoon, company or larger commander. Providing him with an assistant makes sense. After all he has one for administrative tasks (company command and above). As more and more sensors proliferate on the battlefield the risk of overload becomes greater.

This leads to some questions of my own on coaxial weapons. The 7.62 is pretty much the standard weapon for armoured vehicles around the world, with some notable exceptions. To my knowledge, the AMX-30 has a 20mm autocannon and the BMP-3 mounts both a 30mm and a 7.62. On the other end of the spectrum, the new Puma IFV mounts a 5.56 instead.

In the next generation of MBTs, say a hypothetical replacement of the Abrams, would it possibly feature a coaxial 12.7mm or heavier weapon complementing the usual 7.62mm?

Not likely, the 7.62mm is good for most uses. The TUSK kit for example is a specific upgrade to turn the Abrams from a good tank to an Urban killing machine. If you don't need to hunt snipers or blow open mud-brick walls then the 7.62mm is fine. It will kill men and thin skin vehicles, you can carry a lot of ammo and it has a very high rate of fire. However if improvement is needed (say do to improving body armor), simply build the machine gun better and load the equivalent of +p or +P+ rounds possibly with steel cores or saboted loads.

Secondly, do you see the 5.56mm on the Puma as a one-off instead of a trend?

one off.

[Kernow]

As far as I'm aware, the Israelis still teach their gunners to be able to shoot without the targeting system, in case it ever goes down in battle.

Stan the Brits do the same, we call it 'Steam Gunnery'.

[Triple C]

Supposedly for soft-skinned targets, 7.62mm coax killed 3x the target than .50 cal coax in computer projections. The number of ammunition that can be loaded was more advantageous, since coax is the most fired MG on the tank you want as much ammo as possible. 50 cal was there for close infantry defense or special applications, the same with the Tusk's second 50 cal. mounted near the mantlet.

[tankie]

As far as I'm aware, the Israelis still teach their gunners to be able to shoot without the targeting system, in case it ever goes down in battle.

Stan the Brits do the same, we call it 'Steam Gunnery'.

When i was teaching C/A it was called reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaallll gunnery , bracket the target ,, jeeeez am i really that old

HOY WTF , happened to my avatar , let me guess ,, PARI HACKER

[Kernow]

"Add 100".

"Drop 50".

"TARGET".

"TARGET STOP".

[Tankguy]

I too have served on both the M1A2 SEP and CR2. I have been on Abrams (all variants) since 1987 and was an exchange instructor to the AFV Gunnery School in the UK for three years.

I have to disagree with the CR2 having a higher degree of fightability than the SEP. The SEP features all the same degraded mode fight back capability as CR2.

I also fail to see how target acquisition is higher for CR2 than SEP in your opinion. The CR2 commander's sight is day only, SEP is FLIR. It is much easier to acquire targets with FLIR than daylight. Additionally, you completely lose the hunter/killer system on CR2 when the sun goes down.

The location of the TISH sensor on CR2 is a bit of liability. With the TI system located over the main armament you run into problems with slower projectiles at longer ranges. While I know there is a computerized system to deal with this, it results in taking more time to engage targets.

With the current main armament on CR2, the edge for loading speed, and target engagement time goes to Abrams. It just takes longer to load three piece ammo. I know an experience loader/operator on CR2 can load quickly, you can still load more quickly on the SEP. I have loaded both, and was quite proficient on each, and you can load on the SEP more quickly.

One advantage I will give the CR2 is the design of the gunner's and commander's controls. While the thumb controller took ages to get used to versus duplex controls, I like the fact that you can switch day/night, hi/low mag, etc. from the control handles.

The driver's controls are just a matter of personal preference.

[Kernow]

Tankguy.

Oh no, not a Gunnery Queen, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

I loved Lulworth, had some good times there. So you were unlucky enough to undergo the 'Dreaded Cadre', 16 weeks of Hell and sleepless nights, with lots of TP prep, falling asleep in the simulators etc.

"BEHIND THE GUN", "TOO SLOW SIT DOWN".

I hope you kept the 'Red and Gold' Schools Instructors Tabs. I still have mine, but I was from the far superior 'Driving and Maintenace School', in dreary Bovington.

Did you ever manage to get out to the Gunnery Wing in Bergen, Hohne?

So you would have taught Gnr Mechs (CVR(T) and CR 2 (6 weeks), Comds', Instrs' (12 weeks), Tp Ldrs (God they were a pain).

The Thermail Imaging x 4 & 11.5 IS displayed in both the Comds and Gnrs Sights, so you can fight when the sun goes down, I would find it a little strange that CR2 wouldn't have TI for the Comd when CR 1 did, you sure you were sat on CR2 at the time? (Just kidding). You can also view it on relaxed-view monitors, again in both stations.

Oh we also still practice Tank in-direct fire gunnery, do you guys still do this?

If I remember correctly Lt. Col Harry Owens was the Deputy Commander at Lulworth in 94!

[Tankguy]

Tankguy.


The Thermail Imaging x 4 & 11.5 IS displayed in both the Comds and Gnrs Sights, so you can fight when the sun goes down, I would find it a little strange that CR2 wouldn't have TI for the Comd when CR 1 did, you sure you were sat on CR2 at the time? (Just kidding). You can also view it on relaxed-view monitors, again in both stations.

To clear up my point, the CPS is day only. The CDR does have the relaxed view monitor, but you lose the hunter killer system between CPS/GPS at night. You can still use the CITV/GPS on the SEP at night.

Still have my red tabs. The D&M guys at Bovi just secretly wish they were all gunnery instructors. We referred to the D&M, Signal School and Training Regt. collectively as "Monkey World". Affectionately named for the park over the road from Bovington. ;)

[Kernow]

To clear up my point, the CPS is day only. The CDR does have the relaxed view monitor, but you lose the hunter killer system between CPS/GPS at night. You can still use the CITV/GPS on the SEP at night.

Still have my red tabs. The D&M guys at Bovi just secretly wish they were all gunnery instructors. We referred to the D&M, Signal School and Training Regt. collectively as "Monkey World". Affectionately named for the park over the road from Bovington. ;)

You cheeky git :))

I remember once we had some students from Africa way and one day one asked me how the Tumble Driers worked in the Laundry Rooms. My response was:

"You know the Instructors at Lulworth"? "Yes", he retorts. "Well all the 'Hot Air' they talk, is transferred by pipes to Bovington and fed into the Tumble driers".;):))

[Kernow]

So when did you have the privelige of being at Lulworth?

[Tankguy]

so when did you have the privelige of being at lulworth?

2004-2007

[tankie]

So when did you have the privelige of being at Lulworth?

78 , spent a lot of time in the cove ,and on the pebble beach with the wracs

[Kernow]

78 , spent a lot of time in the cove ,and on the pebble beach with the wracs

W.R.A.C. don't exist anymore Tankie. Anyway, you were a brave man mixing with the, most of them were Coyote ugly. :))

[tankie]

W.R.A.C. don't exist anymore Tankie. Anyway, you were a brave man mixing with the, most of them were Coyote ugly. :))

They dont exist wow when did that happen ,, and yea they were ugly , but best to have on your side than against you , cos they could fight better than most when on a bevvy night ,, and me being a stud had loads of em on my side ,,woo hoo