Iran Election June 09

[Chunder]

They did this in 1979 and got away with it.
IMHO In the aftermath of 15 UK Seamen being detained illegally by Islamists in Iran, if UK has acted appropriately then they wouldn't be facing this dilemma.

Thats the thing, the UK has suffered significant pussification in diplomatic circles. What happened in 79 was a direct violation of international diplomatic protocol, what happened with the not so able seamen being detained was an embarrassing joke, and what has happened now is no different in effect to '79.

Why the UK has embassy staff there anyrate, doing what exactly (allegedly safegaurding UK citizens) probably isn't much more than protecting a very expensive piece of real estate. An embassy in a country that does not recognose international law and will trump up any old charge against you is pointless.

[Merlin]

I understand many Iranians shout out "Down with the Dictator" at night from the Tehran roof tops. Does anybody know why do they also add in the phrase "Allahu akbar" or "God is Great"?

Does it mean they want to emphasise it is only the Khamenei dictatorial regime that they are protesting? And that they are not against the Islam religion.

Or is it a habit that they add in the phrase "Allahu akbar" when they want to emphasise their wsh.

Anybody from Iran (or Persia) here in WAB?

[Merlin]

Grand Ayatollah Sistani

Sistani is the most revered Ayatollah among the Shiites. He lives in the Iraqi city of Najaf, the most holy of Shiite sites. He was born in Iran, and before moving to Iraq, he stayed in Qom, Iran's most religious city. Iran is 90% Shiites.

He advocates the separation of religion from politics. "Since the 2003 US invasion [of Iraq], he has supported a democracy that is run by secular leaders and inclusive of all faiths".

He has so far kept quiet about the Iran election and protests.

What Iraq can teach Iran

Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq shows religion can play an influential, but background, role in a secular democracy.
22 June [CSMonitor] Although Iran's postelection protests appeared crushed for now by brutal violence, a giant theological chasm has opened among Iran's Shiite clerics – one that also gives President Obama a safe opportunity to influence Iran's course.

Ever since the 1979 Islamic Revolution, the weakest reed in Iran's complex system of government has been the claim of a supreme leader with absolute political authority based on his Islamic credentials. It is an idea not accepted by the 90 percent of the world's Muslims who are Sunni. And it is rejected outside Iran in other Shiite strongholds, such as in Hezbollah-controlled areas of Lebanon and in Iraq.

Known in Arabic as velayat-e motlaqeh-ye faqih (guardian or the jurist), this concocted religious doctrine, enshrined in Iran's Constitution, was recently rejected by a leading Iranian cleric, Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeric, who was once the designated successor to the founder of the Islamic revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. ....

But the debate over a supreme leader may not fade. There are signs in Iran of increasing popularity for Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the leading Shiite figure in Iraq. Since the 2003 US invasion, he has supported a democracy that is run by secular leaders and inclusive of all faiths. (The Shiite spiritual leader in Lebanon, Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, also does not see himself as a political leader.)

An Iranian by birth, Mr. Sistani holds much sway over the clerical establishment in Iran's most religious city, Qom. And he lives in the Iraqi city of Najaf, the most holy of Shiite sites and a popular pilgrimage for Iranians.

If he wants to send a subtle signal to Iranian dissidents, Mr. Obama could simply praise Sistani's calming, background role as the top ayatollah in helping Iraq's secular democracy.

He could also point out, as many Shiite leaders have warned, that Islam's best protection is not to run a government for fear it would harm the religion. ....

[Bigfella]

Sistani is the most revered Ayatollah among the Shiites. He lives in the Iraqi city of Najaf, the most holy of Shiite sites. He was born in Iran, and before moving to Iraq, he stayed in Gom, Iran's most religious city. Iran is 90% Shiites.

He advocates the separation of religion from politics. "Since the 2003 US invasion [of Iraq], he has supported a democracy that is run by secular leaders and inclusive of all faiths".

He has so far kept quiet about the Iran election and protests.

What Iraq can teach Iran

He may well keep quiet in public, but I suspect he is working hard behind the scenes.

If my memory serves he has already had a running battle with Iranian-educated clergy keen to push the more revolutionary version of Shi'ism in Iraq. This means he most definately has a horse in this race. The more Iranian clergy he can persuade to his interpretation of the Shia tradition the less support the radicals will have in Iraq.

It may take some time to unseat Khamenei & A-jad, but loss of a genuine religious mandate will do serious damage at home & abroad. Lets hope Sistani is indulging in some 'enlightened self-interest'.

[Bigfella]

Perhaps the business with the UK diplomats is the result of power struggles among the leadership spilling over into foreign affairs? After all, if Khamenei really did have gotten control of the situation, the first thing that he would do is sight tight and consolidate by purging the opposition, not engaging in pointless adventures.

Don't just look at the internal dimension of this. Certainly the desire to discredit the opposition within Iran is a powerful motivation to cook up this 'foreign influence' BS. Indeed, there is more than a hint of A-jad seeking to return to his first great triumph - he was one of the leaders of the Embassy occupation. But I think the re is another element to this.

Iran, especially under A-jad, is keen to position itself as champion of downtrodden Muslims in the region. Images of you shooting your own people down in the streets don't look good. Indeed, they might look suspiciously like the sort of government you don't much like. What to do, what to do? Blame those evil westerners. It is their paid henchmen whipping up the mobs, their governments pushing propaganda & fomenting discontent. The UK is an easy target because it is seen as joined at the hip to the US but it is not powerful enough to really do much about it.

I could be wrong, but I think this is all part of a double game.

[Dreadnought]

One thing is for sure. Their credibility is damaged beyond repair. Only the hardliners that are against any kind of freedom and change will support a government that denies its people Rights. And any conflict that surrounds Iran with this government in place is going to be viewed with extreme skepticism as a regime that will never change and always leave them suspect after showing the world that they are more or less a religiously controlled dictatorship. They brought it upon themselves.

*Its reasons like this that drive the good people and the higher educated out of countries like Iran and into countries like the U.S. Give the people basic rights and freedom and they have no problem returning the favor by advancing areas of technology, mathematics, science etc. Its been a trend for a long time some are just too stupid trying to control peoples everyday lives to realize this. Much can be gained from this as the past has shown.;)

[Dreadnought]

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Monday called the death of Neda Agha-Soltan "suspicious" and urged the country's authorities to identify those responsible for it, Iran's semi-official Fars news agency reported Monday.


Neda Agha-Soltan has come to symbolize Iranian resistance to official election results.

The 26-year-old's death has come to symbolize Iranian resistance to the government's official election results since it was captured on amateur video. Within hours of its being posted online June 20, she had become the iconic victim of the Iranian government crackdown.

But Iran has been pushing back against eyewitness reports that she was shot by pro-government Basij militiamen perched on a rooftop near a demonstration.

Ahmadinejad told the head of Iran's judiciary, Ayatollah Hashemi Shahroudi, to probe the incident and make the results of his investigations public, Fars reported Monday, nine days after Agha-Soltan was killed. See gallery of Neda and the affect of her life »

"The massive propaganda of the foreign media, as well as other evidence, proves the interference of the enemies of the Iranian nation who want to take political advantage and darken the pure face of the Islamic republic," he said in a letter to Shahroudi, according to the news agency.

The letter comes a day after Iran's government-backed Press TV said Agha-Soltan did not die the way the opposition claims.

Two people told Press TV there were no security forces in the area when she was killed. iReport.com: Iranians share view from the streets

And the network said the type of bullet that killed her is not used by Iranian security forces.

A man who told the network that he had helped take her to a hospital said, "There were no security forces or any member of the Basij" paramilitary present when she was killed.

Press TV did not name the man, who spoke Farsi and was subtitled in English on the broadcast.

CNN has not identified him and cannot confirm his account.

"I didn't see who shot who," he said. "The whole scene looked suspicious to me."

A second man, whom Press TV identified as Agha-Soltan's music teacher, told the station there were "no security forces in this street" when he was with her during the shooting.

Press TV did not name the man, who had a gray mustache and ponytail. He also spoke Farsi and was subtitled in English as he walked and pointed at what Press TV said was the scene of the shooting in central Tehran.

Agha-Soltan was with a family friend who is a music teacher when she was killed. He appears to be the man who spoke to Press TV.

"There was no sign of a protest," he said. "We crossed the street to the other side to get a cab. ... When we reached this spot, a gunshot was heard. There was no shooting here. ... There were no security forces in this street. There were around 20, 30 people in this street. One shot was heard, and that bullet hit Neda."

"The bullet was apparently fired from a small-caliber pistol that's not used by Iranian security forces," the Press TV anchor said.

Iran has strict gun-control laws that bar private citizens from carrying firearms.

U.S. President Barack Obama said Tuesday that he had seen the video of Agha-Soltan's death and called it "heartbreaking."

"And I think anyone who sees it knows there's something fundamentally unjust about it," he said.

The shaky video of her death -- probably made on a cell phone -- shows her walking with a man near an anti-government demonstration.

After being stuck in traffic for more than an hour inside a subcompact car with a poorly working air conditioner, Agha-Soltan and the friend decided to get out of the car for some fresh air, a friend of Agha-Soltan's told CNN after her death.

The two were near where protesters were chanting in opposition to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Agha-Soltan, wearing a baseball cap over a black scarf, a black shirt, blue jeans and tennis shoes, did not appear to be chanting and seemed to be observing the demonstration.

Suddenly, Agha-Soltan was on the ground -- felled by a gunshot wound to the chest. Several men knelt by her side and put pressure on her chest in an attempt to stop the bleeding.

"She has been shot! Someone, come and take her!" shouted one man.

By then, Agha-Soltan's eyes had rolled to her right; her body was limp.

Blood streamed from her mouth, then from her nose. For a second, her face was hidden from view as the camera went behind one of the men. When Agha-Soltan's face came back into view, it was covered with blood.

Iran's ambassador to Mexico -- one of few Iranian officials who has spoken to CNN since the disputed June 12 presidential election -- suggested that U.S. intelligence services could be responsible for her death.

"This death of Neda is very suspicious," Ambassador Mohammad Hassan Ghadiri said. "My question is, how is it that this Miss Neda is shot from behind, got shot in front of several cameras, and is shot in an area where no significant demonstration was behind held?


"Well, if the CIA wants to kill some people and attribute that to the government elements, then choosing women is an appropriate choice, because the death of a woman draws more sympathy," Ghadiri said.

CIA spokesman George Little responded, "Any suggestion that the CIA was responsible for the death of this young woman is wrong, absurd and offensive."


IMO, Look no further then the Basij and the men you put in the street to beat the peoples brains in over a legal protest.
Some poor slob will get picked to be the face of this bullchit and more then likely himself and his family will pay for this dearly through pain and suffering.

I wouldnt even honor this clown by using his written words and speeches as TP.:P

Let me guess....The West did it, in the library with the candlestick.
What a brainless dickhead!:P

[Merlin]

Keep a look out for this man, Ayatollah Khamenei's son.

Enigmatic son behind nation's supreme leader

29 June [Age] An important conservative figure lurks in Iran's political shadows, ...

LITTLE is known about Mojtaba Khamenei, the son of Iran's supreme leader. Yet the younger Khamenei has been a key figure in orchestrating the crackdown against anti-Government protesters.

Tucked behind an elaborate security structure, he moves in a world that stretches from Iran's Revolutionary Guard corps to the motorcycle-riding Basij militiamen.

Analysts and former dissidents describe him as the gatekeeper for his father, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

The younger Khamenei, who is believed to be in his 40s or early 50s, has emerged as a force in a bureaucracy gradually created by his father to consolidate the supreme leader's power. This culmination of control was used to outflank reformists such as Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Hossein Ali Montazeri, revered figures of the Islamic Revolution who years ago had questioned Ayatollah Khamenei's religious and political resumes as insufficient for a supreme leader. ....

[Dreadnought]

Well, atleast the people know who not to vote for even though it wont make much difference the decision will be made for them none the less.

[Aryajet]

I understand many Iranians shout out "Down with the Dictator" at night from the Tehran roof tops. Does anybody know why do they also add in the phrase "Allahu akbar" or "God is Great"?

Does it mean they want to emphasise it is only the Khamenei dictatorial regime that they are protesting? And that they are not against the Islam religion.

Or is it a habit that they add in the phrase "Allahu akbar" when they want to emphasise their wsh.

Anybody from Iran (or Persia) here in WAB?

Merlin,
The majority of Iranians don't care about religion, even those who are muslim and practice islamic daily requirments are not as radical like in other islamic nations.
About "Allah o Akbar".
It goes back to 1978/79 when we all used that rooftop trick shouting "Allaho Akbar" in order to fight Shah's regime.
In her book "Enduring Love" Empress Farah Pahlavi writes: We could hear the echo of Allah o Akbar from Niavaran Palace and Shah had plenty of sleepless nights.
The phrase is not chanted because of its religious significance, it just reminds them the path they traveled 30 years ago and Victory(??) was the result.

[Aryajet]

I wouldn't believe a word coming out of Press TV.
The video of Neda walking in the streets right before she was shot is all over the internet. There are people around her as far as eye can see.
Her is what Islamists in Iran have been saying about this murder so far:

IRGC: BBC paid some mercenary to kill Neda
Iran's ambassador to Mexico: CIA killed Neda and she was shot on the head.
IRNA: MKO Sniper killed Neda
Tehran's Friday prayer Ayatoillet: The protesters themselves killed Neda.

[Dreadnought]

I wouldn't believe a word coming out of Press TV.
The video of Neda walking in the streets right before she was shot is all over the internet. There are people around her as far as eye can see.
Her is what Islamists in Iran have been saying about this murder so far:

IRGC: BBC paid some mercenary to kill Neda
Iran's ambassador to Mexico: CIA killed Neda and she was shot on the head.
IRNA: MKO Sniper killed Neda
Tehran's Friday prayer Ayatoillet: The protesters themselves killed Neda.

*Sounds more like to me that Assahola's and A-Jad's henchmen picked the wrong person to shoot in the street and now fear the reprisal of the people and the movement her death may spawn.

But ofcoarse A-jad, Assahola and their friends will try their best to pin in on the Americans or the British.

Here is a question for those that believe the West was behind it:

If either the British or the Americans were behind this and able to get agents into Iran and weapons during the elections without Irans intelligence knowing it and that close to the crowds they why not just assasinate A-jad and Asshaola (the root of all problems to the international community) and be done with the problem all together instead of trying diplomacy which as we see isi'nt going to work since A-jad has one again ramped up his rhetoric with baseless lies to remove pressure from himself and his friends.

The answer: Neither the British nor Americans nor anybody from the West commited this crime. If we did the two mentioned above would have been shot long before some unknown innocent female street protestor.

Which should beg the question of who killed the other 16-17 people in the crowds that day?

The answer: The very same that killed Neda, A-jad, Assahola, Basij and their minions.

Why lie to your people more then you already have by cheating them of free elections. We in the West know full well A-jad and friends will never tell the truth for fear of being removed from power or worse yet, held responsible for all of Irans economic,diplomatic and Human Rights issues such as free demorcratic elections and so fourth.

Imagine that, having to face the people over the problems you created all by yourself. Sucks to be you.:P

[gunnut]

Now that the Iranian "unrest" has been crushed by the reigning regime, is it safe for Obama to engage in dialogue with Ahmad again? That will really show the world that we mean what we say when we said "we will engage in dialogue with anyone."

[JAD_333]

Just how picky do we have to be when the goal is getting Iran to give up any plans it may have to produce it's own fissionable material? We have to be pragmatic and if that means talking to A-jad and his handlers, so be it.

[Merlin]

Just how picky do we have to be when the goal is getting Iran to give up any plans it may have to produce it's own fissionable material? We have to be pragmatic and if that means talking to A-jad and his handlers, so be it.

I see your point JAD. But from A-jad's point of view, he finallly wants Iran to have nuclear capability as long as Iran is under threat from a nuclear capable Israel.

Syria was previously thinking along this line as well. Not sure if it still is.

Talk to Iran, Syria and Israel to get a nuclear free middle east.